Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire IV

[Reformed Offlian]

Vixen previously claimed that lithium ion battery fires are distinguishable by "jets of flame." Irrespective of whether this is dispositive of one (it isn't), there are no jets of flame in the video she's using as evidence. It's ordinary self-convective combustion (i.e., a campfire).

Also, it's only a "lithium ion battery" as long as it's mainly only the battery burning. Once other stuff in the car catches, it's just another car fire, and will look like such.

 

[Mojo]

Also, it's only a "lithium ion battery" as long as it's mainly only the battery burning. Once other stuff in the car catches, it's just another car fire, and will look like such.

Vixen has appeared to argue that a "diesel fire" is different in character from any other sort of fire even if it has encountered other fuel.

 

[catsmate]

He went to a prestigious Naval Academy in Sweden and qualified in Naval Architecture (or some such). He might be as mad as a box of frogs but that doesn't cancel out his expertise in vessel buoyancy and such matters.

Evidence for this? And please get the correct Anders Bjorkman

ISTM with all due respect, you bandy words around as insults but they lose their effect because you are not being factual, you are just aiming to attack someone with a different view from yourself by claiming them to be a lesser person. This is comforting to the person weaponising words which are not based in fact but it doesn't make the words true.

Perhaps you could just stop lying?

 

[catsmate]

No. None of that is true. You just believed his claims to that effect.



He has no expertise, although he dishonestly claimed to have it. Neither do you have relevant expertise; you are not qualified to determine whether or not he does.

Further, you concealed him as the source of claims you subsequently made, which were directly traceable to him. Concealing your sources—whether you agree with your critics' assessment of their reliability—is unethical.

Does he still claim to be "under sentence of death" in the US for "revealing military secrets"? Or has be dropped that particular lie....

 

[catsmate]

It was the "vocational training" part that was making me chuckle. I know very well that the inadequate junior in the office whom nobody else likes very much can get tasked with being the named health & safety representative.

A boss who disliked me, the feeling was mutual, tried that on me once. I had four hundred new desktop monitors in his department condemned and replaced as the failed to comply with the specified tilt and swivel requirements in the legislation....

 

[catsmate]

You've never heard of Frederick W Taylor?

Yes. An actual engineer, whom much impressed Lenin.

 

[catsmate]

I have a BSc in Computer Science. Well that's what they called it.

A modular degree that covered programming, operational research, economics and a couple of other things that escape me at the moment. Not that it matters, most of it was outdated a couple of years after I got the degree. It may have been a BSc and have 'Science' in its name, but it wasn't a science degree. Maybe technology. At a stretch.

Deep down, what one person/group calls something is irrelevant if everybody else uses a different definition. One which makes actual sense.

My science degree, actual science including physics, chemistry, mathematics, material science and smidgens of biology and geology, came as as s B.A.(Mod).

 

[gabeygoat]

Don't be so quick to defend her. I was ready to move on from it five pages ago. But Vixen insisted that we produce and discuss examples of her alleged unethical behavior.

I'm not defending any body. In a selfish way, I'm just trying to make good content for me to read. page after page of people insulting Vixen without any new content is boring to me. That's all I'm getting at. I think a majority of the previous pages are both reportable and useless.

 

[Mojo]

Especially as a "white paper" in Westminster parlance is the term for the publication of a bill being put before the House to be discussed and voted on in order to become an Act of Parliament.

A bill put before Parliament is just called a bill. A "white paper" is a document setting out the government's policy, usually leading to a bill to implement it. But still not the same sort of thing as an incident report or a government response to one.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I'm not defending any body. In a selfish way, I'm just trying to make good content for me to read. page after page of people insulting Vixen without any new content is boring to me. That's all I'm getting at. I think a majority of the previous pages are both reportable and useless.

Yes.

All that's important at the moment is that the fire service has confirmed that the car that started the fire was a diesel. Not an electric or hybrid.

Everything else is distraction.

 

[whoanellie]

I'm not defending any body. In a selfish way, I'm just trying to make good content for me to read. page after page of people insulting Vixen without any new content is boring to me. That's all I'm getting at. I think a majority of the previous pages are both reportable and useless.

If you are looking for interesting content this is not the thread for you. It is boring. Of all the threads in which Vixen has taken a lone contrarian position this is by far and away the most boring. She has no argument. She has no evidence to support her position.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

If you are looking for interesting content this is not the thread for you. It is boring. Of all the threads in which Vixen has taken a lone contrarian position this is by far and away the most boring. She has no argument. She has no evidence to support her position.

The only point I disagree on is that this is somehow different from her other threads. The responses are sometimes informative or amusing though.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

All that's important at the moment is that the fire service has confirmed that the car that started the fire was a diesel. Not an electric or hybrid.

Everything else is distraction.

If you are looking for interesting content this is not the thread for you. It is boring. Of all the threads in which Vixen has taken a lone contrarian position this is by far and away the most boring. She has no argument. She has no evidence to support her position.

The only point I disagree on is that this is somehow different from her other threads. The responses are sometimes informative or amusing though.

Over a month ago, in this thread's immediate predecessor, I wrote

Conspiracy theorists squirmed,
Venting rage 'til apoplectic,
When the Fire Service confirmed
'Twas neither hybrid nor electric.​

That's a four-line synopsis of this thread and its three predecessors. Everything that's been written in these threads is elaboration upon that one basic fact, distraction from that fact, or joking about it.

 

[JayUtah]

I'm not defending any body. In a selfish way, I'm just trying to make good content for me to read.

That's honest and fair. I lament when other threads that seem promising devolve into the same bickering among regulars that itinerates from thread to thread irrespective of nominal topic. We come here primarily for enjoyment and entertainment. The real work happens elsewhere. So don't apologize on the grounds that you think maintaining the enjoyment value is ephemeral.

If you are looking for interesting content this is not the thread for you. . . . She has no argument. She has no evidence to support her position.

This is not a thread about the Luton fire. This is a thread about the conspiracy theory of the Luton fire. If you want a "current affairs" discussion or to follow the technical investigation without undue controversy, there are better places to do that. Choosing to look at an issue through the lens of someone else's conspiracy theory means you have to address conspiracy rhetoric itself from time to time. The elephant in that room is the inevitable ego of the conspiracy theorist. That's always what a conspiracy theory is about. Properly, that bumps up against forum rules but it is nevertheless not irrelevant.

Constantly reminding Vixen of facts she knows are there but chooses to ignore can be just as tedious and unproductive. Vixen knows very well that the fire service has conclusively resolved the question. She doesn't care. She doesn't need to be reminded several times a day of it, nor does doing so resolve the argument when the argument is the conspiracy theory that disputes that proffered resolution.

 

[catsmate]

Not being funny but we are all equal on a chat forum. I am not sure hero-worship is a great sign of maturity but anyway it's not something in my value system.

And yet you claim special, specific, skills and expertise. None of which you possess.

 

[catsmate]

Vixen originally found the colour of the flames to be similar to the crimson of burning lithium itself. There was briefly a patch of the flames that could be thus described but there was all manner of stuff under there that would produce flames of many colours. And that's before we get into the question of colour balance in photos and video, etc etc.

Basically, she found a tenuous connection and stuck with it.

Given that a typical lithium vehicle battery back only contains 8-20 kilogrammes of the metal (for the interested observer 0.3g x capacity in Ah for 3.7V, or about 81g per kWh) the main constituent fuel of any battery fire will be plastic.

 

[Oystein]

Given that a typical lithium vehicle battery back only contains 8-20 kilogrammes of the metal (for the interested observer 0.3g x capacity in Ah for 3.7V, or about 81g per kWh) the main constituent fuel of any battery fire will be plastic.

Given that a typical lithium vehicle battery back only contains precisely 0 (ZERO) kg of the metal^[*], I suspect you have not the first idea about the chemestry of Li-ion-battery fires.
That first idea would be that a Li-ion-battery contains a number of different and unusual chemical substances that make up the negative electrode, the positive electrode, the electrolyte and other components, that these react in complex enough ways while the battery works as designed, and may react in many more complex and sometime poorly understood ways when the battery is subject to abuse and outside its operational envelop.

So that first idea should have tought you that the mere numberof kg of Li in a battery does not tell you much.

Also, these batteries are hazardous not because of their size and total stored/released energy, but because of peak temperatures and the difficulty/impossibility of suppressing the initial fire. So your point is pretty irrelevant.

----
^[*] When a Li-ion-battery already malfunctions or operates well outsides its envelop, it may deposite a layer of elemental lithium on an electrode, and that constitutes a hazard, but the amount of such elemental Li will remain very low, a very very small percentage of the total Li

 

[catsmate]

Given that a typical lithium vehicle battery back only contains precisely 0 (ZERO) kg of the metal^[*], I suspect you have not the first idea about the chemestry of Li-ion-battery fires.
That first idea would be that a Li-ion-battery contains a number of different and unusual chemical substances that make up the negative electrode, the positive electrode, the electrolyte and other components, that these react in complex enough ways while the battery works as designed, and may react in many more complex and sometime poorly understood ways when the battery is subject to abuse and outside its operational envelop.

So that first idea should have tought you that the mere numberof kg of Li in a battery does not tell you much.

Also, these batteries are hazardous not because of their size and total stored/released energy, but because of peak temperatures and the difficulty/impossibility of suppressing the initial fire. So your point is pretty irrelevant.

----
^[*] When a Li-ion-battery already malfunctions or operates well outsides its envelop, it may deposite a layer of elemental lithium on an electrode, and that constitutes a hazard, but the amount of such elemental Li will remain very low, a very very small percentage of the total Li

My apologies if I seemed imprecise, I was referring to the element lithium rather than the free metal.

 

[Craig4]

You demanded to know what physics I had studied and I gave you a straight truthful answer. That you enjoy degrading my credentials is not anything I have any control over.

You understand why none of your questions will ever matter and you will never have an impact on the reaction to this fire right? Real people with real responsibilities have to deal with the world as it exists. The people responsible for dealing with the aftermath of this fire are going to proceed without regard to your questions or concerns. The authorities rightly pawned you off on someone in communications because they can't be bothered with your suspicions. They are confronted with a fire that started in a diesel-powered car that damaged the garage and many other cars. They are going to proceed on this set of facts. You might remain smug in your suspicions but that smugness will never translate to actions beyond some intern doing their best to politely respond to an e-mail no one they work for cares about.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Hey, maybe now that Sunak is out as PM, we'll finally learn the truth about this fire!