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Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire IV

Just drive round flicking them out your car window, there's a decent chance that sooner or later you'll cause a car fire (or a verge fire, or a forest fire) & you'll be far gone before anyone knows.

Do that round my way and if someone sees you do it you'll get a visit from the Guardia Civil in short order.
Throwing anything out of a car window will get you a €200 fine. A cigarette end can get you 3-6 years in prison.

A lot of Spain is very high risk for wildfires. People aren't shy about handing you in.
 
So you reckon you see 'a zebra'. But suppose London Zoo webpage carries the legend, 'This is a lion.'

Do you accept what you see is a lion unquestioningly because you are 'not a zoologist'...?


But that isn't the situation we have here.

Suppose London Zoo put up the photo of a zebra, captioned 'This is a zebra', but some random person on the internet said it was really a lion, and London Zoo were just saying it was a zebra to protect the Lion Brand, and anyway London Zoo didn't know anything about the caption saying 'zebra' because it had been written by Jenny from Communications.

What should we think?
 
Do that round my way and if someone sees you do it you'll get a visit from the Guardia Civil in short order.
Throwing anything out of a car window will get you a €200 fine. A cigarette end can get you 3-6 years in prison.

A lot of Spain is very high risk for wildfires. People aren't shy about handing you in.

I'm all for that, I had a terrifying experience on my motorbike once, 70mph busy traffic on the M25, the car in front of me went to wash it's windows and sprayed straight over it's roof onto by bug smeared visor (I'm not overly fond of people who don't adjust their washers either), so I flipped up my visor to see and almost immediately the driver of a Transit van chucked his fag butt out the window straight in my eyes. I was completely blinded for several seconds, if the traffic in front had slowed I wouldn't be here now. I've also had fag butts go down the front of my jacket a couple of times.
 
But they are not part of the investigation. All they have to go on is Hopkinson's words on 11 Oct 2023. For example, until the Covid Report comes out or the Post Office Report comes out, nobody is in any situation to make a pronouncement. The PR guys will just write whatever is the current situation, i.e., what Chief Honcho said at the press conference.

The press release dated 21st March, which stated that "The vehicle involved was diesel-powered – it was not a mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid or electric vehicle", said, "Following the fire, a multi-agency investigation took place between Bedfordshire Police and Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, which finished this week."

Are you suggesting that the multi-agency team investigating the fire spent five months just watching recordings of the original press conference?
 
Oh look, Vixen is lying again.

Vixen must you persist in rudely ignoring questions?
 
You wouldn't think the webpage was updated by a back office member of staff and not an actual zoologist...?

Likewise, how do you know the Beds F&RS webpage isn't simply a precis of what Hopkinson said on Day 1?

Did you contact Hopkinson as suggested? I mean, you could break the case if he doesn't realize that the official website is providing wrong information.

Don't worry, we know you won't because you'd rather make absurd claims than actually do anything.
 
But they are not part of the investigation. All they have to go on is Hopkinson's words on 11 Oct 2023.

Who is this "they"? Do you suppose nobody in the county fire service speaks to anyone else?

I frankly do not believe that you believe Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service retains a PR department whose job is to watch the TV news and then write down whatever they remember their fire officers saying and publish that as a press statement. That is cloud cuckoo land stuff. Do better.
 
You wouldn't think the webpage was updated by a back office member of staff and not an actual zoologist...?
Do you have the slightest evidence that the statement, made five months later confirming that it was, indeed, a diesel car, was an unauthorized and erroneous interpolation by a low-level staff drone, and was, for some reason, never discovered and corrected?

Likewise, how do you know the Beds F&RS webpage isn't simply a precis of what Hopkinson said on Day 1?
Because on the day after the fire, he said it was thought to have been a diesel, but that this was yet to be confirmed. Some five months later, a clarification was issued stating unambiguous that it was a diesel car, and not an EV, hybrid or mild hybrid. A précis of the original statement would have summarized it, not changed it.
 
It was claimed that the flames beneath the car (as one would get in an L-ion fire) was due to leaked fuel/other fluid. So where is the leak showing on the ground.[?]
The videos are not clear enough to say whether there is or isn't a leak under the car. Any leak of flammable fluids that mifht be there is obscured by the flames themselves. And also, because you don't know anything about cars, You don't realize that fuel from the fuel lines/fuel pumps/injector rails, etcetera may have leaked out and then stopped before the fuel tank melted and poured out more fuel.

And even if you could show that there was nothing leaking into the fire on the concrete, how does that prove a Li-ion battery fire? Do flames from EV batteries teleport? Is that why they're so incredibly dangerous?

Thermal suggested it was spraying out sideways through a pinhole but there was no impediment to the fluid spraying out from beneath the car.
No he didn't. That's just you demonstrating your poor reading comprehension again. He was giving examples of the great variety of manifestations of car fires to point out your error of thinking you can create a checklist of EV fire traits.

The point about the zebra is do you believe what you see or do you experience cognitive dissonance and choose to believe an anonymous, unsigned unauthored update titled 'press release' telling you it is a different animal completely? That is the point being made. I cannot get a straight answer.

Perhaps you can supply one?
No, the point about the zebra was because you couldn't prove we were looking at an EV fire (not even with the aid of a cartoon rendering of such a fire), so you were attempting to assert that it was as self-evident as seeing a zebra.
 
All they have to go on is Hopkinson's words on 11 Oct 2023.

Are you suggesting that the multi-agency team investigating the fire spent five months just watching recordings of the original press conference?

By about the age of four, kids realise that others can have different knowledge from themselves, potentially even before they learn what a zebra and a lion are.
 
By about the age of four, kids realise that others can have different knowledge from themselves, potentially even before they learn what a zebra and a lion are.

Yes, one of the hallmarks of Piaget's theory (which Vixen used to disparage other members) is the transition into the concrete operational stage where they decentre and realise that people see the world in different ways. Ironically Vixen does not demonstrate that in this thread.
 
This thread keeps reminding me of that wise old saying - "Never mud-wrestle a pig ..."
 
And even if you could show that there was nothing leaking into the fire on the concrete, how does that prove a Li-ion battery fire?

Well-worn conspiracy-mongering rhetoric.

The conspiracy theorist notes some particular observation—wonky shadows, the movement of Kennedy's head, purported jets of flame—and simplistically dictates that only a certain cause can produce it: studio lighting, a grassy-knoll gunman, or lithium-ion batteries. Naturally that purported cause meshes well with the conspiracy theory. The correct rebuttal is to show that the purported explanation is simplistic, thereby rendering the underlying syllogism non-validating. You can point out that it ignores other potential causes. You can point out that it proposes a naive or incorrect model of causation. Wonky shadows are all over the place in photography, gunshot physics are not simple, and jets of flame can come from a variety of sources.

Instead of receiving that as a valid refutation of the "can only be" major premise in the conspiracy theory, the conspiracy theorist immediately reverses the burden of proof and demands that none of those alternatives can be considered unless proven with evidence in that case. Failing any such proof, for whatever reason, the conspiracy hypothesis is proposed to somehow still hold by default.

The rebuttal has shown that the observation is not dispositive, and therefore the explanation requires a differential diagnosis—in short, that the conspiracy argument is a non-validating syllogism. Unwilling or unable to provide a differential diagnosis, the conspiracy theorist proposes that it somehow now becomes the opponent's task not only to show that something could happen, but that it did.

This therefore goes back to the wildly double standard of proof that nearly every conspiracy theory relies upon. The mainstream narrative dismissed according to one standard of proof. The conspiracy theory is presented according to a much lower standard of proof. And then rebuttals once again incur a much higher (and here, inappropriate) standard of proof that the conspiracy theory cannot meet. It's an obvious ploy to evade any meaningful responsibility to prove anything with actual evidence.

...so you were attempting to assert that it was as self-evident as seeing a zebra.

Not only is photographic analysis of combustion not even remotely as simple as "find the zebra in this photo," Vixen conceded as much. Previously she assured us that experts agreed with her that the video depicted a lithium-ion battery fire. Why say that if you don't already accept the premise that expertise is needful and valuable in that determination? If you assess the relevance of expertise based on whether it agrees with you, you're not thinking about expertise the right way.
 
As "Glory" can mean "There's a nice knock-down argument for you!" so can "Expert" mean "Internet rando that agrees with my CT".
 
...so can "Expert" mean "Internet rando that agrees with my CT".

Leading to the bizarre metric of followers as if that had to do anything with correctness or credibility. To those of us who may have rich, fulfilling lives outside of the Internet, it's fairly obvious that when a platform rewards attention—especially through monetization—the content will favor attention by any means over reliability of content. Vixen's insinuation that tweets or videos are only credible if the accounts have many followers is strictly schoolkid logic.

And many of Vixen's proffered experts clearly have an agenda. Vixen doesn't necessarily dispute this, but she insinuates that their expertise means their agenda and reliable fact are closely aligned. This immediately fails because she has no independent means of judging their expertise. And now she's trying to backpedal from her "I have experts" argument by newly claiming you don't need any expertise.
 
If the zoo were to say that, I'd think that they'd deliberately made a false statement. I'd probably think they were lying.

So, given that you are so confident that the flames could only come from a lithium battery, is the fire department making false statements in an official capacity?

You wouldn't think the webpage was updated by a back office member of staff and not an actual zoologist...?

Likewise, how do you know the Beds F&RS webpage isn't simply a precis of what Hopkinson said on Day 1?

It doesn't matter at all whether it's a very poor attempt at repeating the initial information. The fact is they say it was not a hybrid. If you're correct and it is a hybrid, then it follows that they have issued a press release with a false statement -- and a statement that is so obviously false, a surprisingly clever accountant can tell it's false.

Note that this is not just a BF&RS webpage. It is an official press release. Says so on the tin.
 
But they are not part of the investigation. All they have to go on is Hopkinson's words on 11 Oct 2023. For example, until the Covid Report comes out or the Post Office Report comes out, nobody is in any situation to make a pronouncement. The PR guys will just write whatever is the current situation, i.e., what Chief Honcho said at the press conference.

Your own examples undermine your argument, there have been lots of official pronouncements regarding the PO scandal long before the inquiry has even finished taking evidence. Indeed for the PO you have had the "most" official pronouncement possible in the UK, parliament passing legislation to deal with part of the issues. It is anything but unusual for official bodies etc. to take action and make pronouncements before a final report is published.
 
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