Split Thread Trump Document indictment (as opposed to other indictments)

The Don said:
One of the key failings of the US political system is that the separation of powers relies on the participants playing by the rules. For over 200 years, people did (mostly) play by the rules but in the early '80s the Republicans realised that unwritten rules aren't worth the paper they're not written on and that they can do whatever they want's because there's nothing legally to stop them.:mad:
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It also relies on there being a working mechanism that can deal with the written rules being ignored.
 
slyjoe said:
This is ridiculous. If I had documents with those markings in my house I would now be starting year 3 of my prison sentence.
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Which markings? The cover sheets that the FBI stuck on documents before taking photos of their own classified cover sheets and then releasing those photos?
 
slyjoe said:
This is ridiculous. If I had documents with those markings in my house I would now be starting year 3 of my prison sentence.
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Apparently taking classified documents home and misplacing them is far more common than you would think. Common enough that there are established procedures for their recovery and return. As long as you return them as soon as possible, nothing would happen to you (assuming you were cleared to possess them at some point in the first place).

If Trump had returned them when first asked it would have been a two-paragraph story on page 27. No one would have cared. It was Trump rebuffing every effort by the Government to have them returned, and then trying to hide them and move them around that led to criminal charges.
 
Ziggurat said:
Jay Bratt. Page 6.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653.522.0.pdf
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Interesting, thanks for the link!
The relevant sentence being:

"if the investigative team found a document with classification markings, it removed the document, segregated it, and replaced it with a placeholder sheet. The investigative team used classified cover sheets for that purpose, until the FBI ran out because there were so many classified documents, at which point the team began using blank sheets with handwritten notes indicating the classification level of the document(s) seized"

It is unclear at what stage in the process the "photos were released" but it would not surprise me if it was after the cover sheets were placed. Doesn't take away the fact that the documents had classified markings on them, before the seizure occurred.
 
Ziggurat said:
Which markings? The cover sheets that the FBI stuck on documents before taking photos of their own classified cover sheets and then releasing those photos?
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No such thing as a classified cover sheet that I am aware of. Cover sheets are not classified; they indicate the highest classification level of the material in the document.

Edit: I believe that is what the article linked is talking about with "classified cover sheets".
 
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Random said:
Apparently taking classified documents home and misplacing them is far more common than you would think. Common enough that there are established procedures for their recovery and return. As long as you return them as soon as possible, nothing would happen to you (assuming you were cleared to possess them at some point in the first place).

If Trump had returned them when first asked it would have been a two-paragraph story on page 27. No one would have cared. It was Trump rebuffing every effort by the Government to have them returned, and then trying to hide them and move them around that led to criminal charges.
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Depends on who you are. An elected politician - probably correct in no impact. A contractor to the government - don't be so sure.
 
jadebox said:
That says that the FBI used cover sheets as placeholders when they removed documents from boxes. It doesn't support your allegation that they added them to documents for the photos.
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Sure, sure. It's just a coincidence.
 
slyjoe said:
No such thing as a classified cover sheet that I am aware of. Cover sheets are not classified; they indicate the highest classification level of the material in the document.

Edit: I believe that is what the article linked is talking about with "classified cover sheets".
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Yes, that's what I mean. And I didn't link to an article.
 
Ziggurat said:
Which markings? The cover sheets that the FBI stuck on documents before taking photos of their own classified cover sheets and then releasing those photos?
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jadebox said:
That says that the FBI used cover sheets as placeholders when they removed documents from boxes. It doesn't support your allegation that they added them to documents for the photos.
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Ziggurat said:
Sure, sure. It's just a coincidence.
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:dig:
 
jadebox said:
Coincidence? It doesn't rise to the level of coincidence. You're really grasping at straws - very tiny, inconsequential straws.
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Yeah, it's such a stretch to think that when the prosecutor says they put cover sheets on documents, and they show pictures of cover sheets on documents, they might be pictures of the cover sheets they put on documents. It's a completely crazy idea.
 
Ziggurat said:
Yeah, it's such a stretch to think that when the prosecutor says they put cover sheets on documents, and they show pictures of cover sheets on documents, they might be pictures of the cover sheets they put on documents. It's a completely crazy idea.
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It rather feels like this is an utter pointless attempt to side track, before touching details. After touching details, it feels even more pointless.

As for details...

slyjoe said:
This is ridiculous. If I had documents with those markings in my house I would now be starting year 3 of my prison sentence.
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Ziggurat said:
Which markings? The cover sheets that the FBI stuck on documents before taking photos of their own classified cover sheets and then releasing those photos?
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This is just a weird response.
1. Nothing slyjoe said indicates that he meant the photographed cover sheets. Why would you assume that he meant the cover sheets rather than the documents in question? Are you trying to claim that top secret documents are not marked as such, contrary to the rules on such?
2. To what end are you quibbling? Are you trying to imply that, for example, those classified documents being there was faked, despite Trump publicly admitting to taking such?
 
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Those photos are the only publicly available information which suggests that classified markings on documents were obvious, and they are responsible for the public impression that there's no way Trump didn't know they were classified. So why wouldn't I conclude that's what he was referring to?
 
Ziggurat said:
Yeah, it's such a stretch to think that when the prosecutor says they put cover sheets on documents, and they show pictures of cover sheets on documents, they might be pictures of the cover sheets they put on documents. It's a completely crazy idea.
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They didn't say that they put cover sheets on documents. They said they used cover sheets as placeholders for documents removed from the boxes.

Note: The classification is included on each page of a classified document.
 
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