Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire III

[JayUtah]

But how would Vixen know that?

Well, she claims to have been a forensic accountant and once to have worked on a criminal case. This implies she understands what constitutes evidence, what constitutes a standard of proof, and how to construct a line of reasoning from evidence to conclusion that can withstand a vigorous challenge.

However, we find in practice that Vixen doesn't seem to know how to read and apply laws, how to evaluate regulatory frameworks, what constitutes evidence for a claim, or how to avoid such obviously specious reasoning as an argument from silence. Faced with the discrepancy between her claimed background and her demonstrably poor performance, the conclusion is clear: Vixen has no concept of how to investigate anything, how to develop evidence, or how to create a valid line of reasoning—a typical armchair detective. However, characterizing the person is not the end goal. It is often an instructive side quest, but the real goal is to evaluate the claims.

Here the claims stand entirely without evidence upon a foundation made mostly of the proponent's imagination, and bereft of any brand of defensible logic.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

What about the witnesses who said it started on the roof? ...

They seem to be somewhat imaginary.

 

[Myriad]

If you are talking about eye witnesses, here, too, eye witnesses are important. For example the Romanian lady who took the video of what looks exactly like a thermal runaway and the other chap who gave us the exact time the fire moved up to the roof. Why do you think police ask for eye witnesses to crimes and accidents? Come on, Mojo, you can't be that obdurate.

Thermal runaway, in this context, refers to a process whereby a battery overheats, possibly enough to ignite a fire. (It's a positive feedback process, aka a vicious cycle, whereby a battery begins to overheat and, if current continues to be drawn from it at the same rate, heats up even more because its efficiency decreases at higher temperatures so the total demand on it increases. That's the "runaway" part.)

The one and only characteristic of thermal runaway is an overheated battery continuing to get hotter. Does the video show an overheated battery? If not, it does not show anything that looks exactly like a thermal runaway.

 

[Wudang]

Speaking of regulatory frameworks etc:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ks-fire-safety-guidance-for-electric-vehicles
Published 11 July 2023
Last updated 8 February 2024

Interim guidance about parking or charging electric vehicles (EVs), and the installation of electric vehicle chargepoints, in covered car parks.

The document is here for those keen to get to the meat. Some caveats but in summary for available data (page 21):

Developments in car design have resulted in an increased use of plastics within modern cars which facilitates easier fire spread. Current car park design often relies on a fire not spreading beyond the first vehicle and therefore assumes no more than a single vehicle burning at one time. This assumption, and the effect it can have on external fire spread, may no longer be valid and should be considered as part of the car park design.

Also note

This guidance is not a legal compliance document so there will be no liability or sanction for duty holders failing to comply with it. It does not replace existing regulations or the need to comply with them and does not directly support compliance with:
• The functional requirements of the Building Regulations 2010 (as amended) for new builds, alterations or extensions as covered.
• The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 (as amended) for existing premises as covered.

I haven't finished greping the latter.

 

[catsmate]

Red herring, since the terminology "thermal runaway" is only associated with electric batteries. ICE vehicles do, however, exhibit flashover.

But ICE vehicles, having tanks of highly flammable liquid fuel and mechanisms to move that fuel around the vehicle, are far more prone to fire anyway. And that fire is far more likely to spread, again by means of that highly flammable fuel.

 

[Dabop]

Indeed, many modern ICE cars are MORE likely to start a 'spreading' fire, as many now have plastic fuel tanks- which are arguably better than their older metal counterparts (indeed I have had two separate vehicles with metal tanks that had fuel issues because of rust in the tanks clogging the pickups and filters) but plastic tanks have the issue that a fire (or even road damage from run over debris) can cause fuel leaks and a fire that easily spreads to adjacent vehicles...

Coupled with modern cars making far more use of plastics in general, makes an ICE vehicle fire likely to be more damaging and more easily spread from vehicle to vehicle in the first place...

No need for an 'EV' scaremongering campaign by nutcase conspiracy theorists, ICE vehicles (which catch fire far more often in the first place) have enough issues of their own in the first place to warrant continuing upgrading of fire standards in enclosed spaces...
(which is being done anyway)

 

[catsmate]

Metal versus plastic for tanks is an interesting point. One of the prime scenarios for a vehicle fire in after an impact, when a metal tank is more likely to rupture and cause a fuel spill.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Back to the topic. Did you have time to look at the video I supplied you with yet? What does location 1:04 remind you of?



https://youtu.be/M9Cl6_Y2rXU?si=kz5BJhVVYmfq5fj6

Be honest about what you see.

Honestly, I see cartoon flames presented in a desperate attempt to prove a crackpot conspiracy theory.

Neither of the Luton videos shows "highly directional, jet like flames". Which is probably why you didn't want me to reference them.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Metal versus plastic for tanks is an interesting point. One of the prime scenarios for a vehicle fire in after an impact, when a metal tank is more likely to rupture and cause a fuel spill.

With either type it's a sure fire [rimshot] bet that the fuel inside is going to burn one way or another when you've got a vehicle that's fully on fire. But at a guess, I suspect that it is better to have the plastic tank melt and spill than to have the metal tank build up high pressure vapors until they reach their auto ignition temperature and it blows up and scatters burning fuel everywhere.

 

[JayUtah]

Honestly, I see cartoon flames presented in a desperate attempt to prove a crackpot conspiracy theory.

Neither of the Luton videos shows "highly directional, jet like flames". Which is probably why you didn't want me to reference them.

Indeed. Vixen's argument here is that she can tell what's fueling the fire just by looking at the flames. What she perceives as jets of flame she insists are dispositive of a lithium ion battery in thermal runaway. And the training and experience she's had in order to render this judgment consists apparently of watching a cartoon. And then assiduously begging the question.

 

[JayUtah]

With either type it's a sure fire [rimshot] bet that the fuel inside is going to burn one way or another when you've got a vehicle that's fully on fire. But at a guess, I suspect that it is better to have the plastic tank melt and spill than to have the metal tank build up high pressure vapors until they reach their auto ignition temperature and it blows up and scatters burning fuel everywhere.

Fires from pooled fuel are manageable and not especially hot. Fires from fuel flowing down a slope are dangerous for spreading fire, but don't result in flashover. Flashovers occur in closed or semi-closed portions of the vehicle like the cabin, the trunk, and the engine compartment. Especially if portions of the fuel system are compromised along the way and the fuel tank has been heat-pressurized: you can effectively get torch-like flames. You can also get directed deflagration merely from air currents induced by the fire dynamics.

Obviously studying the phenomena systematically and carefully results in better judgment than just watching a couple of YouTube videos.

 

[Vixen]

Interesting video by this Australian guy today.




https://youtu.be/2phwwE84SuM?si=bJ6n8sgXgdpokGZ7

EV fires in car parks is a GENUINE risk, not "misinformation" | MGUY Australia

Seems to share similar views as myself, in some respects.

 

[catsmate]

Interesting video by this Australian guy today.




https://youtu.be/2phwwE84SuM?si=bJ6n8sgXgdpokGZ7

EV fires in car parks is a GENUINE risk, not "misinformation" | MGUY Australia

Seems to share similar views as myself, in some respects.

 

[Vixen]

[qimg]https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/16272663a1b5985322.png[/qimg]

Feeling tired today so maybe tomorrow, ta.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Interesting video by this Australian guy today.




https://youtu.be/2phwwE84SuM?si=bJ6n8sgXgdpokGZ7

EV fires in car parks is a GENUINE risk, not "misinformation" | MGUY Australia

Seems to share similar views as myself, in some respects.

Picking someone who's clearly an anti-EV zealot is not a good way to bolster your case, such as it is.

Are there problems with current EVs, and are there likely to be problems with near-future EVs? Absolutely.

Have some governments, including the UK's, set highly unrealistic targets for EV adoption? Unquestionably.

Is the rush to net zero playing into the hands of Russia, China, and other enemies of democracy? Certainly.

But none of this is proof that the Luton carpark fire was caused by an EV, and that this is being covered up by elements within the British government.

 

[LondonJohn]

Feeling tired today so maybe tomorrow, ta.

Not too tired to seek out and post another nutty scientifically-illiterate conspiracy theory from "random moron on the interwebz" though, eh?


(And NB (or "nota bene" if you're tragically pretentious LOL): if a random moron on the interwebz is using terms such as "EVangelist", then you can kind of take it as read that said moron is not worthy of inclusion in any serious debate on the subject. Critical-thinking tip for you there )

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Feeling tired today so maybe tomorrow, ta.

Sorry to hear you're not feeling at your best. Hope you're better tomorrow.

However not being at your best does not give you carte blanche to ignore the posts of others, dodge claims and avoid answering questions put to you. While you may not feel up to it right now, (and that's ok!) you do need to do all of those things. Things that you have been repeatedly noted to avoid at all costs.

 

[smartcooky]

For example the Romanian lady who took the video of what looks exactly like a thermal runaway

And what does thermal runaway look like?

And how can you tell the difference between something that IS thermal runaway, and something that looks like thermal runaway but isn't... for example, a battery that has caught fire because of a separate cause such as faulty electrical wiring.

 

[catsmate]

And what does thermal runaway look like?.

In the case of a first-gen Li-ion notebook battery in '99, quite spectacular at the end

 

[Foster Zygote]

Interesting video by this Australian guy today.

No one here has claimed that. No one here has said n that EV fires don't happen.

But did you happen to see Wudang's post presenting data from an actual study that shows that a diesel car fire is 13 times more likely than an EV fire?