Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire III

[phiwum]

Have a look at the photograph. It says 'No Electric Vehicles'. This is the BBC, not given to saying anything that might upset the government, given the BBC Director General is Tim Davie, a Tory appointment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c90zjne2v0jo

Yes, there is a sign at one of the smaller car parks of one hospital. That sign forbids EVs from parking in that one (smallish) car park while work is being done on the sprinkler system.

What a stunning backlash against EVs. It simply must be because of the diesel vehicle that caught fire in Luton.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Because (to Vixen) that's what determines the character of the fire. A fire that starts in a diesel vehicle will be different to a fire that starts in an EV. Even when it has spread to other vehicles.

Perhaps someone cast the Fiend Fire curse?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Because (to Vixen) that's what determines the character of the fire. A fire that starts in a diesel vehicle will be different to a fire that starts in an EV. Even when it has spread to other vehicles.

Just like a jet fuel-fed fire can't cause a steel-framed building to collapse.

 

[catsmate]

No. Not "must". The fire service could have got the information from the driver, and they could have got the information from the car's reg plate logged by the ANPR camera which will be at the car park entrance.

You're twisting this to try to reverse the burden of proof and it's rather obvious that you're doing it.

Or they could have examined the remains.

 

[catsmate]

One extra arm and head.

He's a hoopy frood.

Oh that reminds me, must get present from car. Thanks.

 

[Mojo]

One extra arm and head.

He's a hoopy frood.

Who really knows where his towel is.

 

[smartcooky]

I have never claimed any such thing. You are the one with the avatar.

And you think your avatar, a goat, doesn't imply what you think about yourself - the GOAT!!?

 

[smartcooky]

It is a non sequitur designed to mislead readers into believing it is quite commonplace for a car park to burn down because b follows logically from a, his 'a' being a complete non-sequitur to his b.

Middlesex still exists.

The only stupid people and those with the reading comprehension skills of a five year old would be mislead by what I wrote.

 

[Vixen]

Thanks for that. 13,000 convictions did seem like an absurdly high number but I couldn't summon the will to find out what the statistic really represented.

These are figures for the Essex Area alone 2018 and 2019. It states on the FOI request that only the Courts and Tribunal Services have the full figures/

https://www.essex.police.uk/foi-ai/...-with-false-registration-plates-2018-to-2022/

The 13,000 earlier came from a google search, uk, first up, and referred to cloning.

Point being made is that the police and the fire brigade can't just assume the numberplate on an ANPR is legitimate, especially in a serious incident and the driver presumed to have flown out of the country. In an incident such as this, you have to think the worst and not assume any one particular car is the culprit too readily. Organised criminals might well have a decoy, for example. The video uploaded by the Romanian lady could have come from another event for all they know at that stage.

 

[Vixen]

No, it really isn't obvious. With the possible proviso of likely keeping notes of details like the precise times he gave, a person competent at their job could have delivered that report with ease, entirely unscripted. Why do you doubt it?

Here is a typical job description for a regional chief fire officer:

The role of Chief Fire Officer and Chief Executive of RBFRS operates in an increasingly
multi agency context; initiating, developing and influencing a complex range of
relationships, including:
 the 6 unitary local authorities of Royal Berkshire, their services and schools
 bodies representing local businesses and voluntary organisations
 other Fire and Rescue services and emergency services
 central government (mainly Department for Local Government and Communities)
 Members of Parliament
 Local government politicians
 Chief Fire Officers Association
 Representatives bodies
 Chief Fire and Rescue Advisor
As the most senior officer in the service, the CFO/CEX’s work is primarily generated by
the post holder, within the general direction set by the Fire Authority through a process
involving the Chairman and Vice-Chairman setting annual performance objectives. The
CFO/CEX has freedom to act within the boundaries of legal requirements, Fire Authority
Standing Orders and RBFRS policy.

<snip>

[Person spec]:

Experience On recruitment

Significant experience of
interacting with elected
members and other
politicians.

Experience of Command of
emergency situations at
tactical & strategic levels and
at Gold level (multi agency).
(Simulation may be
considered).

Proven successful senior
management experience and
evidence of personal
development, (by qualification
or experience).

Experience of developing and
working in successful teams.
Experience in cultivating and
working in partnerships and
collaborations.

At experienced level / after
training

Extensive involvement with
elected Members of a Fire
Authority, and other elected
members, and political
forums as appropriate.

Proven experience of project
management

https://www.rbfrs.co.uk/app/uploads/2022/09/Chief-Fire-Officer-job-description.pdf

It is quite detailed so you need to look at it for the full outline. However, it is apparent that plenty of communication with politicians and elected members such as councillors is required, so the idea Mr. Hopkinson did not need to consult with the appropriate government ministers is misconceived, especially in such a serious incident such as that. Imagine how much worse it could have been if someone had left their kids or pets waiting in the car or people could not escape on time.

 

[Vixen]

What point in your timeline is "the outset" and what would the minister do?

As soon as 'critical incident' declared.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

What an insane leap of logic. They need regular communication with unitary authorities therefore they have to tell the government about everything and take orders from them.

Absolute lunacy.

 

[smartcooky]

I nearly did it a couple of times with my own car. I had a diesel work van that I drove most days, I got in to the habit of picking up the diesel nozzle. Luckily I realised my mistake in time.

I have a diesel X-Trail. I pretty much exclusively fill up at automated NPD stations these days, where you would have to bypass two confirmation steps to fill with the wrong fuel.

1. Preselect diesel (it warns you that you have selected diesel)
2. Press a confirmation "Yes"

Once that is done, you cannot use the wrong nozzle, only the diesel nozzle will work.

 

[Agatha]

These are figures for the Essex Area alone 2018 and 2019. It states on the FOI request that only the Courts and Tribunal Services have the full figures/

https://www.essex.police.uk/foi-ai/...-with-false-registration-plates-2018-to-2022/

None of these refer to cloned plates so I'm unclear why you have posted this.

The 13,000 earlier came from a google search, uk, first up, and referred to cloning.

Point being made is that the police and the fire brigade can't just assume the numberplate on an ANPR is legitimate, especially in a serious incident and the driver presumed to have flown out of the country. In an incident such as this, you have to think the worst and not assume any one particular car is the culprit too readily. Organised criminals might well have a decoy, for example. The video uploaded by the Romanian lady could have come from another event for all they know at that stage.

What evidence do you have that the police and/or fire brigade simply "assumed" the plate on the ANPR to be legitimate?

In any case, the point about cloned plates is that they are put on an identical vehicle in order to hide insurance status or to avoid speeding tickets/ULEZ fines. So even if the plate were a clone, which you haven't demonstrated is likely, it would be on an identical make/model.

And what evidence do you have that the driver of the car which caught fire is an "organised criminal"?

 

[smartcooky]

The investigation of the cause of an incident begins the moment the incident begins to unfold, because the preservation of evidence is an exigent concern. Some are doing that from a position of safety while others are in harm's way mitigating the effects. Contrary to the view from your armchair, people will often have some evidence pointing to cause almost immediately.

Indeed. There is zero doubt that the investigation would be initiated while the fire was still in progress and being fought. The recovery of video evidence would be vital. The emergency services might not know how that evidence is stored, and if it is stored in the building itself, and not offsite, then there would be risk that the evidence could be damaged or destroyed before it could be recovered.

 

[catsmate]

These are figures for the Essex Area alone 2018 and 2019. It states on the FOI request that only the Courts and Tribunal Services have the full figures/

https://www.essex.police.uk/foi-ai/...-with-false-registration-plates-2018-to-2022/

The 13,000 earlier came from a google search, uk, first up, and referred to cloning.

Point being made is that the police and the fire brigade can't just assume the numberplate on an ANPR is legitimate, especially in a serious incident and the driver presumed to have flown out of the country. In an incident such as this, you have to think the worst and not assume any one particular car is the culprit too readily. Organised criminals might well have a decoy, for example. The video uploaded by the Romanian lady could have come from another event for all they know at that stage.

Oh look, the frantic back-pedalling has started.

Will you be admitting that you, perhaps negligently, perhaps deliberately, posted falso information?

And while a faked plate might foola camera or distant inspection, it won't fool someone who has the vehicle to examine.

 

[catsmate]

As soon as 'critical incident' declared.

No. As usual you're spouting bollocks in a pathetic attempt to support your conspiratorial fictions.

 

[smartcooky]

Strawman. No one has claimed EVs are "harmless".

There's a new edition you know. The entry for EVs now says "mostly harmless"

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Or they could have examined the remains.

Yes, but not likely by the next morning. We don't know if the floor the fire started on remained intact or collapsed.

 

[Vixen]

Can you explain how you got 1½ hours?

And even if the fire service arrived in eight minutes, "on scene" doesn't mean "dousing the fire with copious amounts of water". You still refuse to understand that. And eight minutes is a long time where a car fire is concerned, as you know from the videos you've seen of cars becoming fully engulfed in flames within a fee minutes.

How long from the actual start of the fire to the fire service being called? We've heard that CCTV cameras show the car was already smoking when in drove into the garage. The driver drove up some way before realizing that weird smell was coming from his car and stopping. Then at least a couple of people ran for fire extinguishers and attempted to douse the fire. So how long did that take before the Bedford Fire Service received a call?



There's so much utter ******** here. Remember when you posted that video of different color flames from different materials, and everyone asked you why the lithium fire wasn't the same color as the fire in the images and you ignored them?

Diesel fires are not innocuous. Of the three - diesel, gasoline and EV - diesel is actually the worst, because it has the most stored energy. But you ignore that too because it doesn't fit your CT fantasy of being the smartest person in the room.

Liverpool King's Dock Fire:

16:29 31.12.17 Internal car park CCTV - first signs of fire (smoke) from the vehicle 16:37 31.12.17 External CCTV – first signs of smoke in Plaza area (pedestrian space between the car park and ACCL) 16:42 31.12.17 First call to the Fire and Rescue Service (999 call from member of public)

Call out 16:42

Fire brigade arrived 16:50

Commenced firefighting level 3, 17:08

17:35 ‘waterfall of fire’ coming from the ceiling reported 17:40 30 vehicles ablaze.

17:53 first sign of flames on Level 4

18:11 well-developed fire

Half-past four pm to about six o'clock pm is where one-and-a-half hours comes from, see above, for when the fire spread from level 3 to level 4 in Liverpool 31.12.2017.

Compare and contrast Luton Airport with flames seen on roof twenty minutes after initial fire started.

The problem with Liverpool was a drainage system of petrochemicals that caused heat bouncing of the ceiling to ignite the floor above. It is not known if Luton had a similar drainage but after the Merseyside Report one would have hoped not. (It was built a year later.)

So the fire at Luton spread to the next level about four times as fast, despite the driver and a passerby being present to act swiftly.

Sure fire spreads rapidly from car to car but do you think the builders would not have known that and applied the relevant standards>

In fact, the National Fire Protection Association (based in the USA but is an international body) made it mandatory in November 2022 for 'parking garages' - as car parks are called in the USA - to have a compulsory sprinkler system. It doesn't look like Luton Airport Cart park No. 2 ever got round to compliance with the international standards.

The 2022 edition of NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, for example, has changed to increase the recommended hazard classification for parking structures from an Ordinary Hazard Group 1 to an Ordinary Hazard Group 2. The effect is a 33 percent increase in the design density, moving from 0.15 gpm/ft2 to 0.2 gpm/ft2.

As of January of 2021, FM Global data sheets have also increased the hazard category for parking garages and car parks from a Hazard Category 2 to a Hazard Category 3.

New to the 2023 edition of NFPA 88A, all parking garages are now required to have sprinkler systems installed in accordance with NFPA 13. Prior to this edition, sprinklers didn’t have to be installed in open parking structures.

NFPA