Transwomen are not Women - Part 14

[Samson]

Riley Gaines ain't too thrilled.
Vote Biden and sacrifice yourselves girls.

https://twitter.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1781330862115610797?t=bExG7YABb__a2uq94EZ1Hg&s=19

"The Biden Admin has just officially abolished Title IX as we knew it. Now, sex = gender identity.

In a nutshell, the new rewrite means:
- men can take academic AND athletic scholarships from women
- men will have FULL access to bathrooms, locker rooms, etc
- men could be housed in dorm rooms with women
- students and faculty MUST compel their speech by requiring the use of preferred pronouns

If the guidelines above are ignored or even questioned, then YOU can be charged with harassment."

 

[Thermal]

That is the narrowest definition of champion you could choose. It is a legitimate definition, but it's not the only one. In fact, the first one at American Heritage Dictionary is, "One that wins first place or first prize in a competition." If you mean literally "the one that no one [in the world] can beat," you're using another definition of "champion."

Paul2's first law: any disagreement devolves into a disagreement about definitions. As evidence for my law, I give you this entire thread.

Tru dat.

ETA: That you can hypothesize some hyper-restrictive competition categories does nothing to de-legitimize many or all of the current restrictive categories based on age, sex, weight class, etc.

As I said, they are perfectly legitimate. This sidebar though seems to be about ideal legitimacy, or why we take it for granted that you can only compete on limited platforms. Actual open competition, without coddling limitations on competitors, is literally a foreign idea to many.

 

[d4m10n]

The evidence of the TRA agenda and its pernicious effects on society has been provided in abundance over the course of this thread. At this point it's up to you to provide evidence that Mulvaney, Levine, and their ilk are not contributing to that agenda.

Alexa please explain association fallacy^WP.

 

[Samson]

Alexa please explain association fallacy^WP.

Are you seeking evidence of association between Joe Biden and the medical and social transitioning of young Americans?
I feel I am missing a domino in your argument.

 

[Paul2]

As I said, they are perfectly legitimate. This sidebar though seems to be about ideal legitimacy, or why we take it for granted that you can only compete on limited platforms. Actual open competition, without coddling limitations on competitors, is literally a foreign idea to many.

Perfectly legitimate, but ideal legitimacy?

Am I taking something for granted, instead of reasoning my way to it?

Legitimate, but coddling limitations?

 

[d4m10n]

I feel I am missing a domino in your argument.

That might be because I'm not making one. If you want to claim that Mulvaney is harming children (by living openly as an adult woman) it's on you to show how that harm is being done.

 

[Samson]

That might be because I'm not making one. If you want to claim that Mulvaney is harming children (by living openly as an adult woman) it's on you to show how that harm is being done.

I'll pass.

 

[d4m10n]

Here's a new one:
https://twitter.com/stholeary2/status/1780691181233672294

Should scripted and choreographed professional wrestling be allowed to queer gender in their performances?

 

[Thermal]

Perfectly legitimate, but ideal legitimacy?

Am I taking something for granted, instead of reasoning my way to it?

Legitimate, but coddling limitations?

Sure. Why not? My nephew's hockey team is as legit as it gets in my book, but has the coddling limitations of age restriction.

You seem to think there is some dark hypocrisy about accepting my daughter's Division II State Championship in swimming, while acknowledging that she is not in the same league as an Olympian. I can't imagine where the contradiction is.

 

[Trausti]

Here's a new one:
https://twitter.com/stholeary2/status/1780691181233672294

Should scripted and choreographed professional wrestling be allowed to queer gender in their performances?

 

[smartcooky]

You must be incandescent with rage while the paralympics and special olympics are happening.

How DARE those people have sporting competitions!

And yes, there are people so abhorrent, that they pretend to have disabilities so that they can 'win' those competitions.
Those people, and their supporters, disgust me.

Well, so long as they self ID as having a disability, that should be OK... shouldn't it?

 

[Orphia Nay]

Okay but at the end of the day there's a track of a set distance and one of you is going to get to the end of it faster. We can't just not notice that and somehow account for how hard the act of running was for you and handicap everything after the fact and give one side credit for effort.

I do think you're downplaying the effect of "Want to see the objective best" somewhat.

Like that's the other elephant in the room. If you can watch a race a race between either 2 men or 2 women you're gonna watch the men because you'll see faster running.

Mainly because nearly all sports in the context we're talking about are spectator sports. And watching peak performance is just more entertaining then watching peak performance.... in this category.

Yes I know this person deadlifting 500 lbs might actually be working harder then this bigger, stronger person lifting 1,000 lbs, but it's still fun to watch the bigger weight lift into the air. It's more fun to watch someone throw a discus further or run the 500 meter faster even if it is easier for them. It's more fun to watch a team of 250 lbs men slamming into each other to move a ball down field then a team of 150 lbs women.

Watching stuff done objectively better is more entertaining.

Men have larger hearts and better aerobic capacity, more fast-twitch muscles, more muscle in general (about 20% more), so they are faster runners.

I like seeing who wins the women’s marathon just as much as seeing the men’s. Maybe because I’m a woman runner who understands the difference.

I think transwomen (not transvestites) are transwomen, not men or women, and should have their own categories.

The problem arises when people are not honest about their sex when there are no categories for trans and only 2 categories for sex. I don’t have the solution for that.

At parkrun (my favourite running “race”) there are 4 separate sex options when registering (as I understand it).

 

[Roboramma]

It is a legit championship. If you win in the Senior Men's 50-to-Pushing-Daisies Group with Arthritis and Erectile Dysfunction World Champion Boxing Match, you won that. Pretty sure you're not the World Champion Boxer though if you need all those qualifiers.

Eta: the Champ is the one that no one can beat. You can still have matches for the competitors with migraines or whatever restrictions you want. At a certain level though, there can be only one, to paraphrase the Highlander. Just one, with no soft pedaling lighter competition.

The champion of any particular division is that champion of that division. No one thinks that the featherweight champion is the open-weight champion, or that by being featherweight champion this means he could defeat the heavyweight champion in competition. The distinction that you think needs to be made clear is already there in the name "featherweight champion".

Its possible that you have a point that fairness doesn't require that there be separate divisions for various weight classes or even for men and women. But neither does it require that those separate divisions don't exist. And once they do exist, there are fairness concerns about how they are administered.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

With reference to boxing and MMA, it's not always about the 'better fighter winning, no matter their size or weight'. If the two opponents have roughly equal levels of skill, then the bigger one will almost always win. A smaller boxer's punches will simply bounce off a heavyweight, whereas a heavyweight's advantage in size and weight will mean they can easliy flatten the smaller fighter. This is why the UFC introduced weight divisions. Once the bigger guys learned to grapple, the playing field was evened again. ETA: This is because those early fights usually involved a grappler beating a striker. When the skill sets are even, then size becomes a critical deciding factor.

The same applies to women vs men. The innate physical advantage biological males have means that, if the skill/ability levels are equal, men still have an inbuilt advantage. Most of the time, this will decide the outcome, and largely take away the competitive element of the contest.

 

[d4m10n]

Quick question for the Mulvaney haters

For those saying that Mulvaney is a malign influence (or worse) not merely that they are unaesthetic or unfashionable or unappealing as a spokesmodel for American-style pale lagers, what exactly is your beef? It seems to me that fully grown adults should be permitted to do pretty much whatever they want with their bodies and their speech, at least so long as they live in the "land of the free," as we Americans generally like to call it.

 

[Hercules56]

For those saying that Mulvaney is a malign influence (or worse) not merely that they are unaesthetic or unfashionable or unappealing as a spokesmodel for American-style pale lagers, what exactly is your beef? It seems to me that fully grown adults should be permitted to do pretty much whatever they want with their bodies and their speech, at least so long as they live in the "land of the free," as we Americans generally like to call it.

She can do whatever she likes with her mental illness, and cut off whatever body parts she likes and install fakes ones and pump herself with hormones. Doesn't mean we are somehow morally obligated to recognize her as a real female.

 

[Thermal]

The champion of any particular division is that champion of that division. No one thinks that the featherweight champion is the open-weight champion, or that by being featherweight champion this means he could defeat the heavyweight champion in competition. The distinction that you think needs to be made clear is already there in the name "featherweight champion".

Right, and as I keep saying, I'm in favor of divisions. This sidebar got kicked off by the abstract spitballing about when and where divisions make sense. Sometimes, size and strength will dominate. Sometimes, skill and technique will dominate. Often, it's the combination.

I mean, Mike Tyson and the early UFC bouts have already been held up as examples. The biggest guy doesn't always win. Saying when skills are equal, the bigger guy wins implies that there is a magic way to even out everyone's skills. If that were even possible, we wouldn't have competitions at all. Size and strength are easy to make even with diet and exercise; skills are extremely hard to level out, yet posters here treat that like it's a piece of cake compared to size.

Much is being made here of the ridiculous comparison of all other things being equal, the stronger/bigger fighter will win. Well, duh. That only restates the trivial truism that when one competitor has an advantage that the other doesn't, he will probably win. Flip it around: when all other things are equal, the one with the superior skillset will win. But there aren't skill or endurance or technique divisions.

Although it can be argued that skill limitations in competition already exist, but are more subtle. A fighter has to qualify his way up through the ranks to have a shot at the title. You don't get to challenge the reigning champ just wandering in off the street like Rocky Balboa.

Its possible that you have a point that fairness doesn't require that there be separate divisions for various weight classes or even for men and women. But neither does it require that those separate divisions don't exist. And once they do exist, there are fairness concerns about how they are administered.

My point here is that divisions are great for the sub-elite competitors, but when you hit the top levels in any given endeavor, maybe they should be entirely open. No more concessions that "well these competitors are just widdle". The highest levels should be Open. Lower levels are dynamite for whatever limitations you want, so all can excel among their peers.

 

[d4m10n]

She can do whatever she likes with her mental illness, and cut off whatever body parts she likes and install fakes ones and pump herself with hormones.

Yes.

Doesn't mean we are somehow morally obligated to recognize her as a real female.

Okay.

My question (#1482) is basically "What is the harm?" and your answer is unclear.

Are people somehow being oppressed for failing to recognize her as a real female?

 

[Elaedith]

Hilary Cass warned of threats to safety after ‘vile’ abuse over NHS gender services review

Dr Cass has been advised to stop using public transport over threats to her safety following publication of the review.

"NHS England has since announced a second Cass review-style appraisal of adult gender clinics. Cass confirmed to the Times that she would not take part in the adult report after the abuse she suffered in recent weeks."

 

[p0lka]

Men are better than women at everything, including being women.

Men cannot be women by definition.

Males and females can be women if you go with the sex doesn't equal gender hypothesis though.