Transwomen are not Women - Part 14

[smartcooky]

You're not keeping up, self-awareness has been demonstrated in many animals.

Pigeons being the first IIRC.

And other animals that pass the MSR test (also called the Mark Test) for self-awareness are

Bonobos
Bottle Nose dolphins
Chimpazees
Orangutans
Crows
Magpies
Orcas
Ants
Asian Elephants
Gorillas
Manta Rays
Mice
‎
‎

 

[theprestige]

Resolved: Transwomen are, at the very least, animals, and probably conscious ones. Can we move on now?

 

[JoeMorgue]

We're gonna be arguing "I am a man, but I have the qualia of a woman" at this rate.

 

[theprestige]

We're gonna be arguing "I am a man, but I have the qualia of a woman" at this rate.

Pretty sure that's already been argued at least once in this thread.

 

[Hercules56]

Extremists who claim this issue is simply about gender being fluid and people having the right to express their true selves, are liars.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/...type=Article&action=click&module=RelatedLinks

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/18/opinion/transgender-care-cass-report.html

 

[Ziggurat]

What we've also seen is that they rarely medal in national or international competitions, because the baseline rate of crossover competitors is so low.

It is now. But 1) some behaviors take time to change, so that may likely change, and 2) very few organizations actually go full self-ID (in fact, I'm not aware of any that do). As I mentioned before, testosterone limits aren't full self-ID. That does put a significant brake on crossover, since it does impose a cost on males wanting to cross over. Not enough to make competition fair, but enough to really slow down the decline compared to no limits. Without even testosterone limits, yeah, complete collapse is basically inevitable if self-ID is maintained, and it probably wouldn't even take long.

We'll never be able to discover whether the catastrophic scenario of TOTAL COLLAPSE OF FEMALE SPORT is realistic, because institutional pushback is already well underway at various levels

Of course it's realistic. That's why there's institutional pushback. That pushback is coming precisely because the institutions are realizing that outcome is possible, not because they actually give a **** about fairness or the rights of women. Because the unfairness to women was apparent from the very start.

Seriously, think about it. Do you really think there aren't three reasonably athletic men in the whole world willing to claim to be women in order to sweep the Olympic medals in any given sport? Do you think women's sports can actually survive that happening every single time? That is an unrealistic scenario.

 

[Matthew Best]

https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-s...e/news-story/7f1828cf0d957798541b59a211c404b6

Here’s the latest example.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And I keep coming back to this.

We can make different "levels" of competitive sports without any of this.

We don't separate people in minor and major league sports by measuring their bone and muscle density and testosterones levels. We have them play the sport and the top .01% go in the major league and the top .1% go int the minor league and exactly zero existential crises related to identity or categorization happens.

Is the Captain of the team who hoist the Calder Cup (the minor league hockey trophy) going to feel like he really isn't winning because somewhere else someone is hoisting the Stanley Cup?

Like I feel like a lot of voices in this discussion are treating "I want to be able to pretend like I'm the best at something in a specific demographic category but I have to be able to lie to myself and pretend like the category isn't arbitrary" as more true then it is.

Like I sorta thought we all understood that subcategories only existed if you want to break it down mathematically there is exactly one person who's the absolute best at any specific thing and that gets depressing. That's why we have weight classes and minor versus major league sports and we all, I think, just get even if it's unspoken that that is all a way for more of us to say we are "the best" at something. But like it doesn't "mean" anything.

If being the fastest female runner in the 45-65 age demographic is the same thing as being the 10,435,546th fastest runner in the world... then it's the same thing. Just because you're the "best" in a category that we, let us drop the pretense here, made up so more people can be the best in something I thought we all got what we were doing and why we were doing it. Like it doesn't actually make you the best.

There is one fastest runner on the planet. There is one person who can throw a shot put the farthest. There is one person who can deadlift the most weight. All the rest of us are "The fastest running..... with these caveats" and I don't know if "Okay but these categories are obviously needed and these aren't" is something we're all agreeing on.

Like having separate women's categories is nice but... I don't know if the base human right we're treating it as.

I don't know if I fully agree that "Women have a right to category just so they can call themselves the best at something" is

Imagine this. Imagine I say I'm the fastest running left handed atheist veteran who drives a Chevy, has O+ blood, a social security number that ends in (redacted), is married to a woman who's last name starts with an M, has beat Dark Souls using only Daggers, and blah blah blah... and so forth and so on.

At a certain point I can add enough modifiers to make myself the best at anything but we'd all get what I was doing what people don't get is that exactly what we are doing anyway, it's just a matter of degree.

There seems to be a sweet spot of "Enough modifiers so I can say I'm the best at something, but not so many that it's obvious that's what you are doing."

Like women are made that putting transwomen into the mix is going to put an asterisks over what they do but there's an asterisks, it's called "Women's sports."

 

[Matthew Best]

Yes, it is. Er, what's your point? That women's sports shouldn't be a thing? Oooooookay.

 

[Hercules56]

Yes, it is. Er, what's your point? That women's sports shouldn't be a thing? Oooooookay.

If we see more and more trans athletes dominanting Womens Sports events, it will stop being a thing.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yes, it is. Er, what's your point? That women's sports shouldn't be a thing? Oooooookay.

Not exactly. I'm thinking outloud I'm not getting to a point just yet.

I'm saying at the end of the day it's ALL just making up categories so more then just one person can be "the best" at something.

I'm saying "I have a right to a category where I am (or have a viable shot at) being the best" is... weird.

Who has a right (and again forgive me this is something I'm still mentally working through) to demand a category where they are the best is a question I think can be put on the table.

Does Serena Williams have the right to a category that she is the best in but a biological male who is a better tennis player than Serena Williams but is nowhere near the top of biological male tennis ranks does not?

And to be 100% clear right now I'm thinking Serena Williams does, but I'm having a hard time articulating why.

So again I'm just... thinking out lout.

 

[Thermal]

Solution: open contests. Whoever wins, wins. Highest ranking in their respective subdivisions of choice can point out they were the highest placing woman/ juvenile / senior citizen/ woman with penis/ guy with mild psoriasis and everyone is happy?

 

[Emily's Cat]

For what its worth, Transwomen are women except.
a. Medical care.
b. prison
c. sports
d. children.

e. self idea isn't good enough for bathrooms or locker rooms.

Also except:
f. rape and domestic violence refuges
g. changing rooms and showers
h. positions and jobs specifically reserved for females
i. acclaims and honors intended to address social barriers to female participation in society
j. statistical reporting of sex representation in the economy, society, and politics
k. reporting related to criminal activities

l-z. pretty much anything other than in their own minds

 

[Emily's Cat]

We'd need to take into account that adolescent females are more likely than adolescent males to adopt transgender identity and that many of both sexes will adopt non-binary identity, which isn't generally associated with crossing over in sports. Let me dig into the crosstabs and get back to you on this one.

What we've also seen is that they rarely medal in national or international competitions, because the baseline rate of crossover competitors is so low. It is possible that many individual athletes refuse to cross over for fairness reasons, but they are generally cowed into silence on the topic.

We'll never be able to discover whether the catastrophic scenario of TOTAL COLLAPSE OF FEMALE SPORT is realistic, because institutional pushback is already well underway at various levels and because we aren't Angstrom Levy.

1) How many females do you think is an acceptable number to be excluded from female sport before you consider it enough to qualify as "total collapse"? What portion of participants do you think female athletes should be required to accommodate at the expense of females before you think it's a "big enough" problem?

2) The entire premise of this part of the discussion is whether or not a LACK OF SEX-BASED EXCLUSIONS would result in total collapse.

 

[Pixel42]

Solution: open contests. Whoever wins, wins. Highest ranking in their respective subdivisions of choice can point out they were the highest placing woman/ juvenile / senior citizen/ woman with penis/ guy with mild psoriasis and everyone is happy?

Fine for things like races, where everyone does their own thing, not so good for knock out competitions where they directly compete with each other

There's a reason why the bantumweight and heavyweight boxing titles are separate competitions. Now imagine what happens when it's a free-for-all, and the best senior citizen draws the current heavyweight champion in the first round.

 

[Thermal]

Fine for things like races, where everyone does their own thing, not so good for knock out competitions where they directly compete with each other

There's a reason why the bantumweight and heavyweight boxing titles are separate competitions. Now imagine what happens when it's a free-for-all, and the best senior citizen draws the current heavyweight champion in the first round.

I almost posted the same thing, but really it shouldn't matter. Best fighter is the one who can beat anybody else, not just anybody under say 140 lbs, but he would get massacred by a heavyweight.

Although having evenly matched opponents surely makes for better sports watching.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Solution: open contests. Whoever wins, wins. Highest ranking in their respective subdivisions of choice can point out they were the highest placing woman/ juvenile / senior citizen/ woman with penis/ guy with mild psoriasis and everyone is happy?

That's sorta of what I'm getting at. That's already what we do, just with more theatrics to hide it and not make it so obvious.

(Again this is a thought working in progress, not a solid argument I'm presenting just yet)

 

[d4m10n]

That's why there's institutional pushback.

None of the organizations which barred male competitors said that they were doing it to avert the end of all women's [insert sport here]. Instead, they mostly cited concerns with fairness and safety.

That pushback is coming precisely because the institutions are realizing that outcome is possible, not because they actually give a **** about fairness or the rights of women.

World Rugby disagrees.

Do you really think there aren't three reasonably athletic men in the whole world willing to claim to be women in order to sweep the Olympic medals in any given sport?

I really think it's only happened once, and all three of those males were raised as girls from birth.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Why, in your own words, do you think we ever separated the sports into sexes in the first place?

 

[theprestige]

For what its worth, Transwomen are women except.
a. Medical care.
b. prison
c. sports
d. children.

e. self idea isn't good enough for bathrooms or locker rooms.

Also except:
f. rape and domestic violence refuges
g. changing rooms and showers
h. positions and jobs specifically reserved for females
i. acclaims and honors intended to address social barriers to female participation in society
j. statistical reporting of sex representation in the economy, society, and politics
k. reporting related to criminal activities

l-z. pretty much anything other than in their own minds

Shorter: Transwomen are women, but not females. (Also, "woman" is functionally meaningless.)