Transwomen are not Women - Part 14

[Hercules56]

For almost a century women have been fighting for freedom, human rights, equality. The right to hold a job. The right to vote. To be seen that the equals that they are!

Now a bunch of confused guys decide they wanna dress like women and cut themselves so they look like women, and all of a sudden a century of feminist struggle is thrown down the toilet, cuz "women don't really exist, they are just a social construct".

Shameful.

 

[Hercules56]

For almost a century women have been fighting for freedom, human rights, equality. The right to hold a job. The right to vote. To be seen that the equals that they are!

Now a bunch of confused guys decide they wanna dress like women and cut themselves so they look like women, and all of a sudden a century of feminist struggle is thrown down the toilet, cuz "women don't really exist, they are just a social construct".

Shameful.

 

[smartcooky]

So name one you think is an authority.

So name one you think is acceptable?

It seems to be a forum for people who ask for a breakdown of what one side of an argument are claiming, then bitch that the answer someone tries to provide isn't definitive or doesn't make sense.

If you can't name an authority you wish to accept, don't complain that the answers people provide aren't acceptable.

Science... specifically, Biological Science, is the only authority I accept in regards to the sex of individual humans. I consider it to be the final arbiter of what is sex, and it should be used as the test for all sex segregation such as safe spaces and sports competition.

https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html

Sex is immutable and unchangeable in humans.

Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy.​

As for Gender, it has nothing whatever to do with hard science.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.​

The key to understanding why this is so is the realization that humans are the only species of animal in existence that have this issue. If disparate genders were a normal, everyday part of the natural world, we would see examples of transgender, gender fluid, non-binary, gender neutral, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit or third gender individuals other than humans in the animal kingdom. We don't.

Humans are the only animals with genders - all other animals have sexes.
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[JoeMorgue]

Yep. Again, yet again, yet yet again, yet yet yet again.

1. Humans are divided into two distinct and SUPER ******* OBVIOUS biological groups. You could take an alien species who had never seen a human before, show them 100 humans, and they would immediately understand that they come in two biological distinctions. Pretending this is in any way not clear is dishonest. Exceptions to this are massively rare and even then the person is not 25% female and 75% male. This is not complicated, nor on a spectrum, nor on a complicated spectrum, nor on a spectrum that is complicated. Literally zero humans now or ever have had a pegina that produces speegs. You'd be hard pressed to provide anything in goddamn nature that is MORE binary then biological mammalian sex. This is a fact and it is not up for debate.

2. Human society and civilizations has put a crap ton of stupid rules, expectations, stereotypes and other baggage on people because of their biological sex and that's stupid and wrong and we should stop doing it. Does the action require a penis or vagina? No? Then it is not a sexed action, don't worry about it.

There is no 3rd axis. Again, louder for people in the back there is no third axis. There is no gender soul, no sex horoscope, no "Personal internal identity of gender roles with sprinkles." Wanting to be something isn't being it. Identifying as something isn't being it.

Everything about this argument depends on their being a 3rd axis and there isn't one. There is nothing, nothing, nothing beyond biological sex and social pressures. Nothing.

 

[smartcooky]

Stonewall, for example, tried to suppress information about the poor evidence base for medical transition of minors that has just been confirmed in the Cass report. They labelled organisations such as Transgender Trend that has always campaigned for evidence-based approaches as anti-trans hate groups. When TT sent information packs to schools that contained accurate information, Stonewall instructed schools to shred them and authorities listened to Stonewall and not TT because Stonewall are obviously the good guys and you can trust whatever they say.


Stonewall runs a diversity champions scheme where employees pay money for Stonewall to train them in how inclusivity and diversity requires belief in gender identity ideology. That's why people were disciplined and sacked for disagreeing with Stonewall doctrine on gender.

Ruth Hunt is now trying to backpedal furiously and pretend that Stonewall never threatened to do anything to people who disagreed that transwomen are women, that she never advocated 'no debate' and her only mistake was to 'trust the experts' on gender medicine.

Stonewall should be defunded and a public inquiry held to make sure that publicly-funded lobby groups never get to influence public policy and silence dissent in this way again.

Most of this description of Stonewall is the very definition of extremist, to the point that it borders on terrorism.

Some might say the latter is an exaggeration, but what else would you call believing unquestioningly in something, demanding that others also believe unquestioningly in that same something, and then threatening consequences for them if they don't?
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[JoeMorgue]

The key to understanding why this is so is the realization that humans are the only species of animal in existence that have this issue. If disparate genders were a normal, everyday part of the natural world, we would see examples of transgender, gender fluid, non-binary, gender neutral, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit or third gender individuals other than humans in the animal kingdom. We don't.

Humans are the only animals with genders - all other animals have sexes.
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You don't even have to do that. The extreme pro-trans side just needs to be honest enough for 2 seconds to acknowledge that humans don't do this about literally anything else either.

"I am 5 foot 5 but I identity as 6 foot" is meaningless. We all know it's meaningless. Nobody would argue that it isn't meaningless.

"Okay but to identify as the other sex is different because reasons which I will not create an entire persona around not actually providing ever."

And height IS a spectrum. Human beings range across several feet of height and you still can't identity as a heigh you objectively are not.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Also I'm going to point out yet again that the whole "Sex and gender are different in literally anyway" a massive retcon.

Sex and gender meant the exact same thing for like... ever. Gender was just a slightly more social term because you couldn't say "sex" around Grandma without risking her dying of the vapors.

It wasn't until I wanna say the late 60s that sex researchers started to treat "gender" as anything but a difference in term.

 

[theprestige]

Yep. Again, yet again, yet yet again, yet yet yet again.

1. Humans are divided into two distinct and SUPER ******* OBVIOUS biological groups. You could take an alien species who had never seen a human before, show them 100 humans, and they would immediately understand that they come in two biological distinctions. Pretending this is in any way not clear is dishonest. Exceptions to this are massively rare and even then the person is not 25% female and 75% male. This is not complicated, nor on a spectrum, nor on a complicated spectrum, nor on a spectrum that is complicated. Literally zero humans now or ever have had a pegina that produces speegs. You'd be hard pressed to provide anything in goddamn nature that is MORE binary then biological mammalian sex. This is a fact and it is not up for debate.

2. Human society and civilizations has put a crap ton of stupid rules, expectations, stereotypes and other baggage on people because of their biological sex and that's stupid and wrong and we should stop doing it. Does the action require a penis or vagina? No? Then it is not a sexed action, don't worry about it.

There is no 3rd axis. Again, louder for people in the back there is no third axis. There is no gender soul, no sex horoscope, no "Personal internal identity of gender roles with sprinkles." Wanting to be something isn't being it. Identifying as something isn't being it.

Everything about this argument depends on their being a 3rd axis and there isn't one. There is nothing, nothing, nothing beyond biological sex and social pressures. Nothing.

Dude, who even is your audience supposed to be, for this?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Dude, who even is your audience supposed to be, for this?

At this point anyone who will listen.

 

[smartcooky]

Well the other forum is a Doctor Who forum so yes, maybe not typical of the real world.

Wow, some of them must have been over the moon when Jodie Whittaker became the Thirteenth Doctor (and probably fell into a bout of pearl-clutching when Ncuti Gatwa became the Fifteenth).

 

[p0lka]

Solution to the sports problem is to change the categories to male and female sports instead of man and woman.
Male and female is biologically defined and therefore easy to separate, as only science deniers would deny.
Gender on the other hand is a variable which is cool, but it's illogical to use sex and gender interchangeably as they are labels for two different categories of group.

Gender group can change over time, whereas sex group cannot.They're not interchangeable.

 

[p0lka]

Also I'm going to point out yet again that the whole "Sex and gender are different in literally anyway" a massive retcon.

Sex and gender meant the exact same thing for like... ever. Gender was just a slightly more social term because you couldn't say "sex" around Grandma without risking her dying of the vapors.

It wasn't until I wanna say the late 60s that sex researchers started to treat "gender" as anything but a difference in term.

Sex and gender haven't meant the exact same thing for like .. a long time.

The term 'tomboy' has been around since the fifteen hundreds, to describe a girl that is boyish.

So I don't agree with your point, because you're incorrect.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Solution to the sports problem is to change the categories to male and female sports instead of man and woman.
Male and female is biologically defined and therefore easy to separate, as only science deniers would deny.
Gender on the other hand is a variable which is cool, but it's illogical to use sex and gender interchangeably as they are labels for two different categories of group.

Gender group can change over time, whereas sex group cannot.They're not interchangeable.

Categorically this works, but then we run into the whole "Watcha gonna do, set up genital checks" thing.

Much like the sex/gender retcon a lot of this trying to retcon off the cuff terms like "Womens soccer" or "Ladies Restroom" to mean something other then "We're obviously separating things by biological sex" so people have smarmily tried to wedge a meaningless semantic quibble of the "Well it says Ladies Restroom and not female restroom" as if the fact that one has a urinal and the other has a tampon dispenser doesn't make it clear enough...

 

[JoeMorgue]

Sex and gender haven't meant the exact same thing for like .. a long time.

The term 'tomboy' has been around since the fifteen hundreds, to describe a girl that is boyish.

Yeah but things like tomboy never carried any implied meaning or connotation of actually BEING the other biological sex in any way.

You called a girl a tomboy because society had stereotypes of what boys and girls did.

But having short hair and coveralls doesn't make you a boy, it makes you a girl who doesn't like to be told how to act and that's fine.

 

[Graham2001]

The contrarians at Spiked have leapt onto the TRA reaction to the Cass Report...

The Cass Review has delivered a damning indictment of the NHS’s treatment of gender-confused children – and of the ideology that has led so many youngsters to medically transition, causing them irreversible harm in the process. Unsurprisingly, ever since it was released last week, trans activists have been desperately scrambling to try to discredit its findings.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/04/17/the-smear-campaign-against-the-cass-review/


But the reaction from 'Science Based Medicine' is much more interesting, they don't even acknowlege that the report exists.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You missed out the word "some", you seem to be arguing for one extremist side, for example I am for trans rights, I can see JoeM is as well, but not the extremist view you seem to want to put forward.

Arguing for other people is very difficult, all you are doing is arguing for your interpretation of the arguments and claims of a small but very vocal and "artificially" amplified group, you are not arguing for my views despite me being "protrans".

d4m10n, this is why you probably need to indicate that you're taking a Devil's Advocate position. Unless you're clear about it, nobody can tell that's what you're doing, it ends up sounding like you're arguing that position.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Acceptable in what sense?

I think it's a fairly accurate summary of the ideological beliefs that the ACLU, amongst many others, is trying to make the basis for what's considered acceptable behaviour, and eventually lawful behaviour, in western societies. If they succeed then society as a whole will have decided that the rights of trans identified males should be given priority over the rights of females. Obviously I don't agree with that prioritisation, but if it becomes the law then there will be nothing I can do about it.

Oh I dunno. If it becomes law, I intend to do a whole lot of campaigning to change those laws, and a lot of civil disobedience to get the point across. I also expect that I and many others will increase the support we provide to organizations like WoLF, to challenge those laws.

ETA: I know there are a fair number of Scottish females who've made a point of stating their view that transwomen are men, despite recent laws.

 

[Emily's Cat]

At this point the primary pro-trans side is just a loop of people talking for other people.

We need, for lack of a better term, an original source on a lot of this.

And, and no I'm dropping this, every time we get an actual trans person in this discussion they are not saying ANYTHING that sounds even a little bit like any of this.

The problem here, Joe, is that there's nobody in this thread taking that position for you to interact with. They're not here. So in essence, you are screaming into the void. d4m10n seems to be trying to give you something to interact with... which as resulted in its own confusions and complications.

 

[p0lka]

Categorically this works, but then we run into the whole "Watcha gonna do, set up genital checks" thing.

Much like the sex/gender retcon a lot of this trying to retcon off the cuff terms like "Womens soccer" or "Ladies Restroom" to mean something other then "We're obviously separating things by biological sex" so people have smarmily tried to wedge a meaningless semantic quibble of the "Well it says Ladies Restroom and not female restroom" as if the fact that one has a urinal and the other has a tampon dispenser doesn't make it clear enough...

Well like you said, categorically it works. I think changing all gender labels to biological sex labels can sort out the present issues we have with everyone trying to mash a variable with a constant and get sense out of it.

Yeah but things like tomboy never carried any implied meaning or connotation of actually BEING the other biological sex in any way.

You called a girl a tomboy because society had stereotypes of what boys and girls did.
But having short hair and coveralls doesn't make you a boy, it makes you a girl who doesn't like to be told how to act and that's fine.

Re:highlighted

Yes I agree, that was my point. Gender was a thing since like ...ever, and it has nothing to do with biological sex.

Gender is all societal stereotypes, sex and gender are not the same thing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ideally an actual trans person and not yet another "I am the Lorax for the trans, it's complicated, stop asking."

Beyond that I'll settle for anyone who can actually in clear normal human English answer a single question with their own actual opinion and not "Well the chart says...."

I'll do my best to kidnap someone and force them to take part in this thread. It might be a while though, kidnapping isn't really in my bailiwick.