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Transwomen are not Women - Part 14
- Thread starter JoeMorgue
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That is an accurate interpretation of the position the ACLU has officially adopted. Whether only a small minority within the ACLU really believe it is irrelevant, since you cannot vocally disagree and remain within the organisation.
The ACLU's official position is not the end all be all of this discussion.
The ACLU is a respected organization worth listening to, but they are not an authority that dictates either laws or behavior.
The ACLU is a respected organization worth listening to, but they are not an authority that dictates either laws or behavior.
So name one you think is an authority.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
Personally I stopped listening to the ACLU decades ago, when they defended the right of US Nazis to celebrate Hitler's birthday by marching through Jewish areas of several major US cities, pass the homes of concentration camp survivors. That was actually the first time I realised that sometimes rights conflict, and a choice had to made as to whose right was going to take priority. In this case, it seemed obvious to me that it was the right of holocaust survivors to live out the rest of their lives free from fear and intimidation.
That ACLU statement is certainly a "concise statement of gender ideology". Unsupported and mostly nonsensical ideology.
That ACLU statement is certainly a "concise statement of gender ideology". Unsupported and mostly nonsensical ideology.
The ACLU was ground zero for the "I can get more 'free speech' advocates to crawl out of the woodwork by telling a Nazi to shut up then I can by saying 'free speech is stupid.'" thing.
They don't fully cross the "Paradox of Tolerance" line, but they do certainly get close to it.
They don't fully cross the "Paradox of Tolerance" line, but they do certainly get close to it.
So name one you think is acceptable?
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Something called Stonewall appears to be the benchmark.
It's quite simple, you and pixel42 complain that the ACLU is not an authority/is nonsensical,
So name an organisation you consider to be an authority which can be quoted.
Cf theprestiges's post - Stonewall?
..... none. ******* none. What a dumb ass question.
There isn't a single organization that gets to just declare itself the authority in this. It's a broad social discussion where a lot of voices get to be heard because it effects a lot of people.
I even ******* said "The ACLU is a respected organization and it deserves to be listened to" and you ran in here to defend it's ******* honor like it's your virgin daughter you caught in the high loft with one of the farm boys.
******* Christ this place sometimes. It this a LARPing forum for people to pretend they don't know how human language and discussion work and nobody told me?
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
It's not a question of who the authorities are. It's a question of who the advocates are, what they're advocating, and how influential their advocacy is.
ACLU is an advocate. The ACLU is advocating a position that seems pretty consistent with mainstream trans rights woo. The ACLU is historically a very influential and effective advocate. If they succeed in this advocacy, it will likely set in public policy and popular culture a number of things that will be harmful to society, and very difficult to un-set. Their definitions of man and woman may not be "authoritative", but they could very well be the ones that matter, practically. And that has an authority of its own.
It seems to be a forum for people who ask for a breakdown of what one side of an argument are claiming, then bitch that the answer someone tries to provide isn't definitive or doesn't make sense.
If you can't name an authority you wish to accept, don't complain that the answers people provide aren't acceptable.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
Acceptable in what sense?
I think it's a fairly accurate summary of the ideological beliefs that the ACLU, amongst many others, is trying to make the basis for what's considered acceptable behaviour, and eventually lawful behaviour, in western societies. If they succeed then society as a whole will have decided that the rights of trans identified males should be given priority over the rights of females. Obviously I don't agree with that prioritisation, but if it becomes the law then there will be nothing I can do about it.
Acceptable in that you accept the explanation as being representative of the trans position - which you obviously do.
Not acceptable in the sense of agreeing with the premise, which you obviously don't.
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Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
I can name any number of authorities who advocate for the ideological belief that blasphemy against the Christian God should be against the law. I can accept that most of them accurately state the case for that belief. I still don't accept the belief.
ETA: So yes, what you said.
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At this point the primary pro-trans side is just a loop of people talking for other people.
We need, for lack of a better term, an original source on a lot of this.
And, and no I'm dropping this, every time we get an actual trans person in this discussion they are not saying ANYTHING that sounds even a little bit like any of this.
We need, for lack of a better term, an original source on a lot of this.
And, and no I'm dropping this, every time we get an actual trans person in this discussion they are not saying ANYTHING that sounds even a little bit like any of this.
Yep, so do you have one in mind?
Ideally an actual trans person and not yet another "I am the Lorax for the trans, it's complicated, stop asking."
Beyond that I'll settle for anyone who can actually in clear normal human English answer a single question with their own actual opinion and not "Well the chart says...."
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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