Well it's official.

[uruk]

When are people going to learn that democracy just doesn't work.

 

[Jocko]

Jocko --- now that Larsen's question has been explained to you, would you like to answer it?

One name, please. Just one.

Comapred to you, Claus makes sense. You have a question? Ask it.

 

[Hutch]

Jocko --- now that Larsen's question has been explained to you, would you like to answer it?

One name, please. Just one.

Forget it, Dr. A--Jokco's as slipperly to pin down as one of those mud wrestlers at Gilley's Bar in Las Vegas (NOW don't you wish you had gone to TAM4!! )

Jocko, see post #10 of this thread.

 

[zenith-nadir]

An example I've already brought up today - Northern Ireland. The British and Irish governments entered into direct talks with the terrorists - despite all the risks that entailed.

Was the IRA sworn to Britains' destruction? Nope. Did the IRA see it a religious duty to wipe Britain of the face of the map. Nope.

Therefore the world has to A) change the ideology of HAMAS to accept Israel's exsistence and B) convince them that Allah really doesn't desire them to destroy Israel.

Go for it if you can.

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)-Palestine

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Article One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.


...blah...blah...blah...and a bunch of other fundy rhetoric...

(emphasis mine)

HAMAS is not the IRA, nor will HAMAS capitulate as the IRA did unless you can change the very core of HAMAS's ideology.

 

[Darat]

Was the IRA sworn to Britains' destruction? Nope. Did the IRA see it a religious duty to wipe Britain of the face of the map. Nope.

...snip...

It is still an example of how negotiations can, despite decades of terror ist murders, work.

 

[Jocko]

Forget it, Dr. A--Jokco's as slipperly to pin down as one of those mud wrestlers at Gilley's Bar in Las Vegas (NOW don't you wish you had gone to TAM4!! )

Jocko, see post #10 of this thread.

Yes, I got it, Hutch, thanks a million. Where would I be without you? The point was meant to contrast the drumbeat of egalitarian posters who insist, sans evidence other than sheer numbers, that most muslims are peaceful. The Hamas victory - strike that, the Hamas landslide - puts the lie to that one last little criteria: "1.5 billion muslims can't ALL be nuts." Oh, really? Seems like the latest polling information runs counter to that lovely little utopian nugget of joy.

Perhaps a better line would have been "You know who you are." Dr. A seems to have already outed himself. Anyone else need a translation, you just let me know.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

An example I've already brought up today - Northern Ireland. The British and Irish governments entered into direct talks with the terrorists - despite all the risks that entailed.

I was talking about the middle east. There has been thirty-plus years of negotiations. I'm just short on hope at the moment.

 

[Jocko]

It is still an example of how negotiations can, despite decades of terror ist murders, work.

It could be seen how decades of terrorist murders can be allowed to fuflfill a political goal. Well done, Darat. It's not capitulation if you can call it negotiation, and no one really cares about the distinction, do they?

 

[Hutch]

It is still an example of how negotiations can, despite decades of terror ist murders, work.

And I would also note that during the Israeli occupation of S. Lebanon and the subsequent actions of Hezbollah (which is definitely terrorist, funded by Iran, and hostile to the existance of the State of Israel) more than a few Israeli soldiers were captured/kidnapped by Hezbollah and subsequently released after negotiations--so somebody was talking to somebody.

That noted, any possible Israeli talks with a Hamas government should be undertaken in the same method that porcupines may love---Very, Very carefully.

 

[zenith-nadir]

And I would also note that during the Israeli occupation of S. Lebanon and the subsequent actions of Hezbollah (which is definitely terrorist, funded by Iran, and hostile to the existance of the State of Israel) more than a few Israeli soldiers were captured/kidnapped by Hezbollah and subsequently released after negotiations--so somebody was talking to somebody.

The exchange of a few prisoners did not alter the core ideology of Hezbollah.

That noted, any possible Israeli talks with a Hamas government should be undertaken in the same method that porcupines may love---Very, Very carefully.

But that is why I started the thread. Hamas officially states it will not recognize Israel. So how will Hutch convince hamas to A) recognize Israel and B) reject the core Hamas ideology as layed out in the Hamas Covenant?

 

[Darat]

It could be seen how decades of terrorist murders can be allowed to fuflfill a political goal. Well done, Darat. It's not capitulation if you can call it negotiation, and no one really cares about the distinction, do they?

Jocko, I don't think you are quite up on the current state of Northern Ireland i.e. it is still part of the UK and there are no plans for a "united Ireland" which was the goals of the IRA and other republican terrorists. Indeed it is further away today then ever before since Ireland also has dropped any calls for such a thing unless a majority of the Northern Irish wish it.

So today I no longer have to endure constant bomb alerts, it was a common reason in the UK for being late somewhere especially if you traveled by public transport "Sorry I'm late bomb scare at the railway station". And other minor inconveniences such as no street rubbish bins in our cities (because that was a favourite place for the terrorists to place their bombs), no worries about yet another bombing campaign ripping through the heart of Manchester and so on. All achieved through negotiation.

 

[fishbob]

It could be seen how decades of terrorist murders can be allowed to fuflfill a political goal. Well done, Darat. It's not capitulation if you can call it negotiation, and no one really cares about the distinction, do they?

Bombings are currently down in Northern Ireland.
You want to be the winner or you want something that works?

 

[Hutch]

Yes, I got it, Hutch, thanks a million. Where would I be without you?

Out of consideration for your apparent weariness in posting, I will refrain from the obvious riposte.

The point was meant to contrast the drumbeat of egalitarian posters who insist, sans evidence other than sheer numbers, that most muslims are peaceful. The Hamas victory - strike that, the Hamas landslide - puts the lie to that one last little criteria: "1.5 billion muslims can't ALL be nuts." Oh, really? Seems like the latest polling information runs counter to that lovely little utopian nugget of joy.

There are what, 3.5 Million Muslims in Gaza? Of which about 55% voted for Hamas. Out of 1.5 Billion? I would dispute your math.

Perhaps a better line would have been "You know who you are." Dr. A seems to have already outed himself. Anyone else need a translation, you just let me know.

Oh goody, you get to make a statement about what "our egalatarian posters" think and they WE have to tell you who we are, since you apparently are without a clue who they be. I'm massively impressed.

 

[a_unique_person]

...as if it wasn't already...

How do you make peace with fundies who are even unwilling to recognize that you exsist? Concurrently how can a third party broker peace between fundies and Israel when the fundies are unwilling to recognize Israel exsists? And finally, How do you make peace with fundies who will not even arrest terrorists who fire rockets into Israel?

If the Palestinians who voted for Hamas didn't see this coming then they are delusional.

I know, the Palestinians have had the same problem for years now.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I know, the Palestinians have had the same problem for years now.

One day it would be refreshing to see what you actually think about the political situation without turning your Israel-is-responsible filter on.

Let's recap. Palestinians turfed Fatah out of office because after 12 years in power their lives were worse off than before. Palestinians overwhelmingly elected Hamas - a recognized terrorist organization - as the alternative to Fatah. As some top Fatah ex-officials are on the run for embezzlement of hundreds of millions of dollars Hamas states officially that they will not recognize Israel.

What say you?

 

[Jocko]

There are what, 3.5 Million Muslims in Gaza? Of which about 55% voted for Hamas. Out of 1.5 Billion? I would dispute your math.

Okay, I'm listening. Show me any kind of polling that suggests the same figures would not be repeated elsewhere. I'm just going on the available data, not good intentions and fond wishes.

You can dispute my math all you like, but my experience is that 55% =! "tiny minority." If you have something else to offer, by all means, do so.

 

[Jocko]

Bombings are currently down in Northern Ireland.
You want to be the winner or you want something that works?

You want to be enslaved, or you want something that works? False dichotomies are fun, aren't they?

 

[a_unique_person]

One day it would be refreshing to see what you actually think about the political situation without turning your Israel-is-responsible filter on.

Let's recap. Palestinians turfed Fatah out of office because after 12 years in power their lives were worse off than before. Palestinians overwhelmingly elected Hamas - a recognized terrorist organization - as the alternative to Fatah. As some top Fatah ex-officials are on the run for embezzlement of hundreds of millions of dollars Hamas states officially that they will not recognize Israel.

What say you?

It's an Israel/Palestine thread, it's fair comment.

 

[zenith-nadir]

It's an Israel/Palestine thread, it's fair comment.

It's a fair comment. Palestinians have settlements in their midst because fundy jews have this idea that god told them to resettle Judea and Samaria AKA the West Bank. I agree 100%. The Israeli government funded illegal settlements that were built on Palestinian land. I agree 100%.

Does that mean the fundy jews must die for that desire? Does that mean Israelis and foreignes on holiday in Israel must suffer decades of terrorism because of that desire? Is there a point where the Palestinians could stop hating Israel enough to see that continued conflict is not in their best interest? By electing Hamas I think not yet. It's not Israel's fault that Fatah was run by a dictator who stole billions and was corrupt from top to bottom.

But Fatah is no more, now we have HAMAS to deal with, The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)-Palestine clearly spells out what Hamas is and what it's stands for.

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.

 

[a_unique_person]

It's a fair comment. Palestinians have settlements in their midst because fundy jews have this idea that god told them to resettle Judea and Samaria AKA the West Bank. I agree 100%. The Israeli government funded illegal settlements that were built on Palestinian land. I agree 100%.

We agree on something. There is hope for us yet.

Does that mean the fundy jews must die for that desire? Does that mean Israelis and foreignes on holiday in Israel must suffer decades of terrorism because of that desire? Is there a point where the Palestinians could stop hating Israel enough to see that continued conflict is not in their best interest? By electing Hamas I think not yet. It's not Israel's fault that Fatah was run by a dictator who stole billions and was corrupt from top to bottom.

But Fatah is no more, now we have HAMAS to deal with, The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)-Palestine clearly spells out what Hamas is and what it's stands for.

I don't want jews to die because of the conflict, nor Palestinians. I do think that, if other conflicts are a guide, that the extremists are the ones who force the agenda, and that is why there is still no peace. As each side loses trust and respect for the other, the situation spirals out of control. The only hope is moderation.

Note that one of the biggest forces behind the settlement movement in the end realised his aims were not achievable. I expect that HAMAS will have to do the same, it has no choice. For all the rhetoric it spews about Israel, Israel has nukes and won't go down without using them. It has to recognise Israel in the end.