Cont: Global warming discussion V

Some scientists. And who can blame them? But they can want all they like, they won't get it.

Maybe, maybe not. It would be fun to see what they propose to meet the Paris Accords.

I don't care what Michael Mann's carbon footprint is. I do care about motivating the population as a whole into reducing our carbon footprint. At least he has managed to achieve some small progress there.

I do. He threw his weight behind Greta Thunberg, who didn't have much more than We're all going to die unless we do something super drastic! as her message. Thunberg is a climate justice model advocate which means developed nations need to do all the heavy lifting. What would that heavy lifting look like, Greta? We never found out, we just echoed her slogans and patted ourselves on the back as we continued to stuff our faces in the fossil fuel trough and pigged out.
 
I think all types of bag, plastic, hemp, whatever, at the point of sale in all shops should be banned, or at least very expensive. Consider it a basic educational programme for adults to plan what they need to do the task they have set out to do.

We've had a single use plastic bag ban around here for years. It seems to work fine except for all those letches eying up the coconut cream pie I was carrying through the mall yesterday.

The City of Vancouver introduced a fee on single use cups recently. The idea to encourage people to pack their own reusable cups. The city had to shut it down because homeless and low income people found it punitive. Suck it up, environment.
 
Industries aren't just burning fossil fuels and consuming other resources for the hell of it. If consumers didn't consume as much <insert the latest things you didn't need or even knew you wanted but were marketed to want them> then that would make a huge difference. People often perceive reducing their consumption as austerity, but I think that's just because we've been marketed to our whole lives to judge our state of being by how fancy the stuff we own is and how much of it we have. I think many people lack a reason (other than to work to pay bills) to get out of bed in the morning, so instead they distract themselves from their meaningless lives by acquiring stuff to temporarily make themselves feel better. The idea of not doing that terrifies them because they would then have to address the lack of meaning in their life.

The other side of this is that the quality, durability and reparability of goods will have paramount over the profit of manufacturers. The EU has legislation to make repair more affordable for certain products, but it needs to be the default for all goods (apart from a few with exceptional requirements that make it impractical) if we are going to live within the limits of our planet.
This. But the contrarians and doomsayers don't want to hear that.
 
We've had a single use plastic bag ban around here for years. It seems to work fine except for all those letches eying up the coconut cream pie I was carrying through the mall yesterday.

No plastic bag ban here. I have quite appreciated the relatively recent option at my local grocery store to recycle the plastic bags, though.
 
Well, that's a shame. I thought maybe we could come to some sort of amicable agreement. However, as you wish...
Firstly, then, you are ignoring my point that industry is not some separate entity in itself: it is made of people. It involves stakeholders. It is subject to government regulations. It is subject to market forces. Each one of these influences is composed of groups of people. Each group is composed of individuals.
I'm not ignoring that, I'm just denying the reductionism. A corporate entity does not behave solely according to the individual wills of individual people.

As Kay said to Jay "A person is smart - people are dumb panicky animals and you know it."

Groups of people - especially when confronted with market pressure - do not behave like individual people behave.

I am also a little puzzled by your flip-flopping on whether or not industry is changing. You doubted it: I posted links showing this was happening, and you later acknowledged it yourself. Now you appear to be going back to saying it isn't changing. Do you mean 'not changing at all', or 'not changing enough', or what? I am genuinely confused.
If you're still confused about what I'm saying, it's because you are motivated to misunderstand. Stop thinking in terms of individual motivations and start thinking about collectives, and you'll begin to see what I'm talking about. A collective does not behave like an individual does.
 
No-one has said that individuals alone can effect change. You really need to be clearer on this, because it looks like your position changes from hour to hour.
It hasn't. I have been perfectly consistent for the whole discussion. The only thing that has changed is your interpretation of what you think I've been saying. And I can't do anything about that.
 
Plastics, mostly.
This highlights the distorted perceptions people get from the news media. No, the products we consume are not made mostly from plastic.

Some statistics for you:-

1. 99% of plastic resin is created from oil, but this consumes only 8% of total oil production. Its contribution to global warming is far less than burning the stuff.

2. The biggest consumer of raw materials by far is the construction industry, accounting for ~75% of non-fuel consumption in the US. Only 12% of it is plastics.

3. Plastics make up 20-33% of typical consumer electronic products, and ~9% of lightweight motor vehicles.

4. ~35% of plastic consumed in the US is used in packaging.

5. Domestic waste in the US is 27% paper, 15% food residue, 14% clothing items, and 13% plastic. In China plastics make up 11%, in the EU 8%.

With the amount of plastic we are throwing away now, the effect of it 'leaking' into the environment will be devastating if we don't put a stop to it. But this doesn't mean plastic is bad. ~40% of it is used in 'durable' goods that have a long product life. The longer we keep them the less waste is produced. We could recycle 99% of the plastic if products and packaging were made to do so and we bothered to do it.

And do you think that our civilisation can end its absolute dependence on plastics any time soon? Let alone soon enough to halt and reverse warming? Do you think that individuals, working independently of each other, can do that?
What we need to end is fossil fuels that are releasing CO2 into the atmosphere, and other producers of greenhouse gasses. We could continue using plastic at current levels and it wouldn't be a problem - so long as we stopped it from from 'leaking' into the environment.

But currently everything we make involves the burning of fossil fuels. We can stop that by:-

1. Reducing the amount of stuff we consume, including food and non-durable goods. This will automatically reduce the amount of plastic waste.

2. Use low carbon energy sources such as wind, solar, hydro and nuclear.

3. Make production more efficient, requiring fewer workers and infrastructure (which are the biggest consumers of energy and materials).

4. Design products for greater durability so they don't have to be replaced as often.

Oh ****, I've just turned this into yet another individualism vs. collectivism debate. :covereyes
We are all individuals, and we are all in it together. But it's hard for an individual to see the big picture and understand the need for collective action. Too often they mistake it for an attack on their 'freedoms' when really it's about protecting them.

Unfortunately even those who are trying to help are often pushing their own narrow agendas and not relating it to the big picture. Plastics are a good example. Yes, we need to cut down on plastic waste - but that is a separate issue from global warming. Conflating the two is not helping.

Even worse, many people are deliberately misrepresenting facts to trick us into supporting their selfish individualism that will benefit them (at least in the short term) but not us. They often know they are doing it too. Oil companies are the most famous example, but it's actually far more widespread and insidious.

Today I read about how the National Government in New Zealand is axing the Auckland fuel tax. This isn't directly related to global warming but it will affect it. More importantly it shows their attitude. Thankfully the news media is finally waking up to what they are doing...

The government's recent announcement that it would bring forward legislation to end the Auckland Regional Fuel Tax (ARFT) in June - four years early - is the third time in 30 years a National-led government has repealed such a tax.

Pulling the plug seems less about the cost of living or misuse of tax revenue than simply sweeping clear the previous administration's legislation. Transport policies, plans and projects have fallen at an astonishing speed since the coalition government was formed.

One of its first acts was to cancel the clean car discount that helped create a market for electric vehicles by subsidising their cost. Unsurprisingly, sales of EVs took a plunge in January. At the same time, a higher registration fee for "high-emitting vehicles", dubbed the "ute tax", was abandoned.

As the new government took office, transport agency Waka Kotahi quickly announced a freeze on cycling, walking and public transport projects. Road projects seem unaffected.

Other car-centric policies include plans to roll back hard-won speed limit reductions, cancel light rail projects in Wellington and Auckland, and nix a second multimodal Auckland harbour crossing.

Transport minister Simeon Brown recently doubled down on this when he announced that any additional harbour crossing would be for the exclusive use of vehicles - directly excluding consideration of cycling, walking and rail...

Meanwhile, the government has announced plans to enact a road user charge for battery electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles. On top of removing the clean car discount, this makes low-emitting vehicles less competitive on price...
... all while insisting that we will meet our commitment under the Paris Agreement to reduce net GHG emissions to 50% by 2030, a mere 6 years away. And they intend to (not) do that with messaging like this:-

Instead, the official rationalisation for ending the ARFT has centred on the cost of living. For instance, Simeon Brown has argued drivers with a Toyota Hilux could save "around $9.20 every time they fill up".
Based on the Hilux's 80-litre fuel tank and an average 12,000 kilometres per year travelled, that equates to about $92 per year, or $1.77 per week. The savings shrink significantly for smaller, more efficient vehicles.

For reference, here's the Hilux 'Urban Farmer', which Toyota promotes as being "as comfortable on the farm as it is at flash city bars."

picture.php


Equipped with snorkel, roof platform and all terrain tyres. What an appropriate vehicle this is to illustrate the 'savings' your average Auckland city driver will make under National's scheme - not.
 
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I'm not ignoring that, I'm just denying the reductionism. A corporate entity does not behave solely according to the individual wills of individual people.


I never said it did. What I said was that people can change the directions of companies. Do you dispute that?

As Kay said to Jay "A person is smart - people are dumb panicky animals and you know it."

I am familiar with that quote. However, it is completely irrelevant when applied to the concept of cumulative pressure coming from increasing numbers of individuals going green.

Groups of people - especially when confronted with market pressure - do not behave like individual people behave.

Again, I fail to see the relevance. If I buy a reusable shopping bag (which I have), then I'm using a lot less plastic every week.
If two people do that, that's less plastic again.
At what point are you suggesting that the critical mass of people making this simple decision turns them into a panicky collective that suddenly stops using reusable shopping bags? How many people? Moreover, what market pressure would force or encourage me to abandon my eco-bag and go back to single-use plastuc bags?

If you're still confused about what I'm saying, it's because you are motivated to misunderstand. Stop thinking in terms of individual motivations and start thinking about collectives, and you'll begin to see what I'm talking about. A collective does not behave like an individual does.

Here, you have totally missed the point. I was referring to your contradictory statements about industry- not individuals or collectives.
I said industry was changing: you asked me how that was going- i.e. you doubted it was changing. I posted links- later on, you posted about how industry was changing- progress is being made, is how you put it. You then went back to doubting that industry could change, or was making those changes.
This is what is confusing me- nothing at all to do with collective action.

As a final point, you haven't detailed why you think that a sum of individual actions won't work, or why you think collective action is doomed to failure. Perhaps you could elaborate?
 
<snip>

Equipped with snorkel, roof platform and all terrain tyres. What an appropriate vehicle this is to illustrate the 'savings' your average Auckland city driver will make under National's scheme - not.

Might be a good choice if flooding becomes more common because of climate change.
 
As a final point, you haven't detailed why you think that a sum of individual actions won't work, or why you think collective action is doomed to failure. Perhaps you could elaborate?
I'm going to stop answering at this stage because there seems to be no point. I will say this, though:

I have never said that collective action is doomed to failure. That you think I did tells me that you haven't understood a word I have said. This motivates me to stop talking to you, so that's what I'm going to do.
 
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But currently everything we make involves the burning of fossil fuels. We can stop that by:-

1. Reducing the amount of stuff we consume, including food and non-durable goods. This will automatically reduce the amount of plastic waste.

2. Use low carbon energy sources such as wind, solar, hydro and nuclear.

3. Make production more efficient, requiring fewer workers and infrastructure (which are the biggest consumers of energy and materials).

4. Design products for greater durability so they don't have to be replaced as often.

We are all individuals, and we are all in it together. But it's hard for an individual to see the big picture and understand the need for collective action. Too often they mistake it for an attack on their 'freedoms' when really it's about protecting them.

Yup. This. :thumbsup:
 
Can there be too much rooftop solar?

Apparently, yes.

'Staggering' rise of rooftop solar to put all other power generation in the shade, report finds

The capacity of rooftop solar in Australia will eclipse the country's entire electricity demand in coming decades, according to a report that charts the technology's "staggering" rise.

Almost 20 gigawatts of small-scale solar has already been installed across Australia's biggest electricity system, but a report from Green Energy Markets predicts this will more than triple by 2054, even by conservative assumptions.

The firm said the rapid increase in the number of photovoltaic cells across the roofs of Australian homes and factories would be a key plank in government efforts to decarbonise the economy.

In a report due out today authors Tristan Edis and Ric Brazzale say the capacity of rooftop solar will far overshadow the amount of large-scale conventional generation currently installed in the national electricity market (NEM)...
 

I was recently involved in a conversation about a retirement village in Northern NSW.

Residents in the village, want to have solar panels, but the local electricity distributor has said no.

This is because the entire village (hundreds of homes) is served by a single connection onto the grid, and that connection cannot carry the current of the potential generation of those homes.

With the amount of generation already in the area, the supplier couldn't see any profit in upgrading the village's connection.

I saw this in microcosm with my own setup, back in 2008.

I had an old standard service on my house (30 Amp), and the electricity distributor upgraded that service to 100 Amps to support a 1.5 kW solar system.

Modern homes can be built with 400 Amp services these days.
 

A staggering rise, you say?
But that's so weird. How is this possible? It looks like individual households have been installing solar panels of their roofs- and the cumulative effect of this has led to a huge difference. I thought that was impossible?
Not only that, but the report mentions factories doing this too. But...but...industry won't change. Right? Haven't I been told that, over and over again?
This is too much to digest. I must lie down for a while.
 
When you're motivated to misunderstand, nobody's explanation will be sufficient.

Oh, come on, Arth: that's just not fair. As a poster, I like you: you generally make a lot of sense, and I agree with a lot of what you say. I have no reason to deliberately misunderstand you.
I also care a great deal about what's happening in the world with regard to global warming, and environmental issues in general. I believe that it is the responsibility of each and every one of us to make changes to our lifestyles, "go green", for want of a better phrase. If we don't, then nothing will happen that will alter the course we are on. If we do, then the effect will be significant, in all areas of society.
Now, what you seem to be saying is that, by all means, go green, but it will have almost no significant effect. Making eco-conscious lifestyle choices is, in your eyes, no more than window dressing, a salve for the conscience, a futile gesture. Every time I've asked you about this, you reply that it isn't what you mean, but support that by reposting comments of yours that say just that. How is this helpful? I think we should be encouraging people to make that change, and I don't see how your posts here are doing that. I see what you're saying as a disincentive to act.
It's also frustrating that, every time I ask you for clarification, you respond by reposting the exact same quotes that puzzled me the first time round. This isn't explaining. Saying again the thing I didn't understand the first time won't help my comprehension one whit.
Then there are your statements that industry won't change, or isn't changing. You've said that, then said the opposite, then went back to the first one again. You haven't addressed that part of my queries at all.
Ditto the 'panicky collective' and 'market forces' bits. I am no clearer as to what you mean there, because you have declined to elaborate.
In short, then, I am motivated to understand you, but your attempts so far to aid me in this are not working, and I don't get your mischaracterisation of my motives at all. I would love to come to an agreement, or at least an understanding. I even offered you an olive branch, but you rejected that, too. That's why I asked if anyone else could get what you're saying: not because I don't want to understand, but because I do.
 

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