Secession

lobosrul5 said:
And what about all the millions of people in the seceding states that don't want to secede?. Whose rights will be trampled on, even worse than now, most of whom won't be able to upend their lives to travel to a non-secession state (if even allowed to).

**** them, amiright?
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Yeah, it sure does suck for millions of people trapped on the wrong side of a border in an area ruled by regressive theocratic jackholes elected decades ago who trample on their rights with no consequence in an economic situation that leaves them with no resources to correct their situation or upend their lives to leave even if they were allowed to, which they aren't. But on the bright side, it's not like anyone's going to collectively blame them all for the horrible crap the regressive theocratic jackholes pull, right?
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Yeah, it sure does suck for millions of people trapped on the wrong side of a border in an area ruled by regressive theocratic jackholes elected decades ago who trample on their rights with no consequence in an economic situation that leaves them with no resources to correct their situation or upend their lives to leave even if they were allowed to, which they aren't. But on the bright side, it's not like anyone's going to collectively blame them all for the horrible crap the regressive theocratic jackholes pull, right?
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Democracy can be a bitch, but its the best system we have.
 
Hercules56 said:
If there is a state-wide referendum and majority of voters say "yes", its not a small cabal of right wingers, now is it?
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Yes, that's exactly what it is. If they're concentrated in a particular state, then good. That's a target-rich environment.
 
Hercules56 said:
....and now, back to reality.

:)
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I'm guaranteed Constitutional rights and protections of those rights by being a US citizen. The state in which I reside has no right to take those rights away, or take away my US citizenship just because a majority of the other residents of that state think they can. If Texas were to secede the people within the state are still US citizens, except those that renounce it I suppose, and the United States has the duty and obligation to protect them from Texas.

You are advocating for the tyranny of the minority by the majority. Some sort of unworkable "total democracy".

Unilateral secession by a state within the USA cannot be anything other than civil war.
 
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lobosrul5 said:
I'm guaranteed Constitutional rights and protections of those rights by being a US citizen. The state in which I reside has no right to take those rights away, or take away my US citizenship just because a majority of the other residents of that state think they can. If Texas were to secede the people within the state are still US citizens, except those that renounce it I suppose, and the United States has the duty and obligation to protect them from Texas.

You are advocating for the tyranny of the minority by the majority. Some sort of unworkable "total democracy".
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If the secession referendum wins by 51%, the majority has decided.

Democracy is great!!!

So you oppose EU members being allowed to leave the union?

Almost ALL our decisions are made by democratic vote.

Why is this suddenly a bad thing?
 
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phiwum said:
Democracy or your fantasies? Who says a majority of any of those states wants to secede?
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No majority in a fair referendum means the USA would not accept secession and take necessary steps to prevent it and defend our citizens.
 
Hercules56 said:
If the secession referendum wins by 51%, the majority has decided.

Democracy is great!!!

So you oppose EU members being allowed to leave the union?

Almost ALL our decisions are made by democratic vote.

Why is this suddenly a bad thing?
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So everything in your world is majority decision, by what... any subgroup? The people of El Paso county Texas decide to leave Texas and join New Mexico. That cool with you? Or does this mechanism only work for federalized USA states in your world of total democracy?

50.01% of US citizens decide the 2A no longer applies... that good with you?

The EU is not a sovereign nation. The UK for example, is. They always maintained the right to leave at any time of their choosing. Analogy fail.

Total majority rules in all situations is not suddenly a bad thing. Its a thing thats been known to be bad for a long long time. Its why the US Constitution doesn't just read: we'll have a vote and whatever a simple majority supports is what we do, Democracy yo!
 
lobosrul5 said:
So everything in your world is majority decision, by what... any subgroup? The people of El Paso county Texas decide to leave Texas and join New Mexico. That cool with you? Or does this mechanism only work for federalized USA states in your world of total democracy?

50.01% of US citizens decide the 2A no longer applies... that good with you?

The EU is not a sovereign nation. The UK for example, is. They always maintained the right to leave at any time of their choosing. Analogy fail.

Total majority rules in all situations is not suddenly a bad thing. Its a thing thats been known to be bad for a long long time. Its why the US Constitution doesn't just read: we'll have a vote and whatever a simple majority supports is what we do, Democracy yo!
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Oh cry me a river.

Democracy is a good thing. Major legislation that has changed our lives is all due to 51% majority.

Supreme Court decides by democratic majority.
 
lobosrul5 said:
I sincerely hope you are trolling.
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Obamacare was approved via majority vote in both houses of Congress.

Tyranny????

Every state of the union joined via majority vote in Congress, and majority vote in state referendums.

Tyranny??
 
Hercules56 said:
Obamacare was approved via majority vote in both houses of Congress.

Tyranny????

Every state of the union joined via majority vote in Congress, and majority vote in state referendums.

Tyranny??
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:confused: What an odd non-sequitur.

Both of your examples are the methods in which such things are accomplished according to the US Constitution. Neither of which being a referendum which actually have no legal meaning in Federal law or proceedings.
 
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theprestige said:
Nope. The first thirteen states joined by sending delegates to sign the new constitution. Except for Rhode Island, which didn't send a delegation, but somehow joined the union anyway.
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OK well many other states had a referendum on joining the union.


Put it this way folks: if Trump wins again (and he very well may), and takes the USA down the path of fascism and authoritarianism, and a GOP controlled Congress lets him do it, I think Liberal states should have the right to say "**** this, we had enough, we wont be part of this **** anymore!!"
 
Hercules56 said:
Put it this way folks: if Trump wins again (and he very well may), and takes the USA down the path of fascism and authoritarianism, and a GOP controlled Congress lets him do it, I think Liberal states should have the right to say "**** this, we had enough, we wont be part of this **** anymore!!"
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Ah OK, thats the angle you're going for. Fair enough then.
 
I think as noted in this thread the way for secession to happen is a vote by the state in question and a vote in congress.

Doesn't matter, it won't happen. Folks in various states have brought this up over the last decade or so when a president they don't like is in power. It doesn't go anywhere, it wouldn't be good for anyone involved.
That being said, the states all already have the national guard, it wouldn't take much to turn that into an army and air force. Oregon even has a "Military Department".
 
ahhell said:
I think as noted in this thread the way for secession to happen is a vote by the state in question and a vote in congress.

Doesn't matter, it won't happen. Folks in various states have brought this up over the last decade or so when a president they don't like is in power. It doesn't go anywhere, it wouldn't be good for anyone involved.
That being said, the states all already have the national guard, it wouldn't take much to turn that into an army and air force. Oregon even has a "Military Department".
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Guardsmen do take an oath to protect the Constitution etc. I'm not sure its exactly the same as the regular military, but its similar. If a state seceded they'd have to hope their guardsmen were more loyal to the state than the USA. In reality it'd be a mix. And then, of course, the active duty military has all the best equipment. Far more people in the USA move between states, many than back during the actual US Civil War. Why would I be loyal to my current state of residence over the USA? I wasn't born here, and I didn't grow up here. Of course, were Trump to become POTUS then I'd likely choose New Mexico over USA. But likely a 3rd or more of the state guard would do the opposite.

ETA: in reality if Trump is elected, and states secede, it will be a 2nd civil war.
 
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lobosrul5 said:
Guardsmen do take an oath to protect the Constitution etc. I'm not sure its exactly the same as the regular military, but its similar. If a state seceded they'd have to hope their guardsmen were more loyal to the state than the USA. In reality it'd be a mix. And then, of course, the active duty military has all the best equipment. Far more people in the USA move between states, many than back during the actual US Civil War. Why would I be loyal to my current state of residence over the USA? I wasn't born here, and I didn't grow up here. Of course, were Trump to become POTUS then I'd likely choose New Mexico over USA. But likely a 3rd or more of the state guard would do the opposite.
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To be clear this is an entirely hypothetical conversation as it won't actually happen but....

Guardsmen have already chosen their state otherwise they'd be active duty or in the reserve. They'd just have to change the oath. They also wouldn't need the best equipment, well unless they expect the US to invade, because otherwise, who do they have to defend against? Mexico, Canada, some other state that also seceded?

For the most part, the seceding state would only loose money they get from the feds. The states and local governments do almost all of the standard government things but they do get money from the feds to do some of it.

ETA, I'm not down playing the abilities of the Mexican and Canadian militaries, just the likelyhood that they'd invade a former US state.
 
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We in the USA live in a country. States are no more than administrative subdivisions. They aren't and can't ever be sovereign nations.

I said that my great grandfather went to war to save his COUNTRY from being destroyed by the worst elements in it. He enlisted in a unit named for Ohio; that's where he lived and it was easy to join.

I doubt they'd take me in the Michigan Iron Brigade. Damn shame. I could serve in Intel, pinpointing the saloons in Casper where the WyoMingk Ruff Riderers will congregate every evening.
 
sackett said:
We in the USA live in a country. States are no more than administrative subdivisions. They aren't and can't ever be sovereign nations....
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Not unless the rest of the USA allows it.

The USA is not some holy union under God.
 
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