Largest ever miscarriage of justice?

[Nessie]

The Law Commission in E&W may have ruled that computer evidence was to be routinely accepted as correct, unless there was a clear issue in 1999, but that does not cover Scotland. The Scottish Law Commission in 1986 published a report on evidence in civil proceedings that states,

https://www.scotlawcom.gov.uk/files/3912/8015/1551/26-07-2010_1439_424.pdf

"Thus, as with written, routine records, regularly kept computer records are regarded
as generally trustworthy. However, these requirements based on the regularity
of the supply, storing or processing of information mean that the results of tests
designed to establish whether the computer is running properly and other such
irregular exercises may not be admissible. Section 13 also requires that the
computer should have been operating properly throughout the relevant period."

"However, the requirements as to proper operation are inadequate in that they do not take account of the possibility of the reliability of the output being affected by defective software."

Instead of being suspect and demanding proof of correct operation from the PO, COPFS took Horizon's evidence at face value. I really hope that stops and this is a valuable lesson learned for not just prosecutors, but the courts.

 

[Nessie]

Sad, but not surprising, evidence is now emerging that Post Office investigators would force sub-postmasters to court, without any evidence of theft, to try and extort shortfall repayments from them, BEFORE Horizon was introduced.

https://twitter.com/stugoo17/status/1750443558018933194

"Ex-Sub-Postmaster Kuldeep Kaur Atwal claims Post Office Auditors/Investigators suggested that her cultural background may have played a role in her criminality and that she was likely to receive a custodial sentence unless she admitted to stealing from her branch.

In 1997 a jury at Coventry Crown Court was subsequently instructed by the Judge, Richard Cole, to return a not guilty verdict due to lack of evidence. However, @PostOffice
still went on to demand that Atwal pay the money she had been falsely accused of taking.

The EPOS Accounting system Atwal had been using in her branch in Coventry was a predecessor to the ICL/Fujitsu HORIZON System, known as CAPTURE."

The bugs in Fujitsu Horizon system just enabled the existing Post Office investigation methods to go to town on the sub-postmasters.

 

[catsmate]

Even earlier than that

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38930210

The Post Office were told about the problems in 2003 but decided to sack the contractor they had hired to check their software rather than deal with the problems.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-67921974​

Well yes, but the Computer Weekly stories got lot of traction in the ICT community, especilly the consultancy business.

 

[catsmate]

Not for E&W, but in Scotland and NI, the prosecution service ran the prosecutions, so the PO investigators had to present the evidence to them.

COPFS doesn't seem to have scrutinised the POevidence very well before carrying out the prosecutions.
In fact the office hasn't even been consistent with the number of PO/Horizon prosecutions in Scotland. And the Lord Advocate has repeatedly claimed that prosecutors were deceived on multiple occasions.
Though at least one more of those wrongfully convicted in Scotland has been cleared.

 

[catsmate]

I'm not sure what that's got to do with the problems being known in the ICT business, outside the Post Office and Fujitsu, before 2010. I'm not saying it wasn't (Computer Weekly first reported on problems in 2009, IIRC), but you linked to an article about the Post Office being aware of failings in 2003, which is not the same thing as IT professionals outside being aware.

It was being discussed within the ICT community in the UK by the end of 2009; I remember conversations at IT events and with other consultants. At the time I was based out of Basle working primarily for an international financial institution who has opertions in the UK.

 

[catsmate]

Another conviction vacated.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...tor-kathleen-crane-cleared-conviction-quashed

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Sad, but not surprising, evidence is now emerging that Post Office investigators would force sub-postmasters to court, without any evidence of theft, to try and extort shortfall repayments from them, BEFORE Horizon was introduced.

https://twitter.com/stugoo17/status/1750443558018933194

"Ex-Sub-Postmaster Kuldeep Kaur Atwal claims Post Office Auditors/Investigators suggested that her cultural background may have played a role in her criminality and that she was likely to receive a custodial sentence unless she admitted to stealing from her branch.

In 1997 a jury at Coventry Crown Court was subsequently instructed by the Judge, Richard Cole, to return a not guilty verdict due to lack of evidence. However, @PostOffice
still went on to demand that Atwal pay the money she had been falsely accused of taking.

The EPOS Accounting system Atwal had been using in her branch in Coventry was a predecessor to the ICL/Fujitsu HORIZON System, known as CAPTURE."

The bugs in Fujitsu Horizon system just enabled the existing Post Office investigation methods to go to town on the sub-postmasters.

As soon as Dailly the investigator said the other day, "we had quotas to fill" this news was inevitable

 

[Andy_Ross]

Documents showing Post Office top bosses secretly decided in April 2014 to sack forensic accountants who had found bugs in their IT system have been obtained by the BBC.

A Post Office board sub-committee, codenamed "Project Sparrow", took the decision with the full knowledge of the government.

The independent forensic accountants Second Sight played a key role in exposing the scandal, finding flaws in the Horizon computer system which generated false evidence of cash shortfalls at sub-post offices, leading to wrongful prosecutions of sub-postmasters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300.amp

 

[Nessie]

Everyone involved in Project Sparrow should be arrested for perverting the course of justice.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I wondered about the professional bodies representing the lawyers, what action are they taking?

 

[Darat]

I wondered about the professional bodies representing the lawyers, what action are they taking?

<>Chirp<>

 

[Andy_Ross]

Another scandal brewing over the Post Office 'Capture' back office system accounting system implemented just before Horizon.
Apparently there are reports emerging of similar bugs and errors.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Who wrote that?

 

[jimbob]

Who wrote that?

It was front page of the i-paper a couple of days ago

ETA: sub postmasters sacked and prosecuted when shortfalls were recorded despite PO knowing the software was experiencing "faults" and problems

2024-01-24

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Who wrote the Capture system, silly?

 

[Wudang]

Who wrote the Capture system, silly?

According to this article

It is still unclear who designed Capture, and the Post Office has so far declined to comment on questions about its implementation.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

4 years before Horizon, no wonder the Top Brass felt under pressure not to fail again

 

[Nessie]

That is now 100 convictions quashed;

https://twitter.com/nickwallis/status/1753025965939101876

 

[catsmate]

According to this article

I'm not sure who developed Capture, I'll ask around, but I *think* it was internally managed with contractors doing the work.

 

[Darat]

I'm not sure who developed Capture, I'll ask around, but I *think* it was internally managed with contractors doing the work.

I think you are right - had a horrible thought I might have done some work on it - but thankfully was confusing it with some home office contracting I did.