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Largest ever miscarriage of justice?

Darat said:
I don't disagree with you in principle, but this is is a case of when asking for directions being told "I wouldn't start from here". Our current justice system cannot cope with this miscarriage of justice in a timely manner, we know this because if it could it would have already dealt with it. So to me this is exactly when "extra-judicial" means are justified. That this is yet more evidence that we do need to change our justice system (E&W) is all well and good but the victims shouldn't have to wait for any such reforms to happen.
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True.

I would let the Home Secretary "pardon" them pending formal exoneration by the courts.
 
Darat said:
I don't disagree with you in principle, but this is is a case of when asking for directions being told "I wouldn't start from here". Our current justice system cannot cope with this miscarriage of justice in a timely manner, we know this because if it could it would have already dealt with it. So to me this is exactly when "extra-judicial" means are justified. That this is yet more evidence that we do need to change our justice system (E&W) is all well and good but the victims shouldn't have to wait for any such reforms to happen.
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Funding for courts has been massively cut and they are already failing in many ways. Even if a new government restored funding it would not have significant effect in anything close to a reasonable time period given the age of most of those directly effected. Perfect is the enemy of good.
 
It has been pointed out there are things which don't up in the accusations made against the accused eg why would large numbers of post masters committ offences only after a new IT system had been introduced at the same time. Do you feel another flaw in the accusation against the post masters is stealing large sums of money from the post office is something which would be impossible to hide and would deter people from committing such offences.
 
Welshman said:
It has been pointed out there are things which don't up in the accusations made against the accused eg why would large numbers of post masters committ offences only after a new IT system had been introduced at the same time. Do you feel another flaw in the accusation against the post masters is stealing large sums of money from the post office is something which would be impossible to hide and would deter people from committing such offences.
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Also the abject lack of money trail for the alleged frauds.
Oh and Fujitsu being shown to have lied, repeatedly, regarding Horizon and (especially) their remote access capacity.
 
One of the PO inspectors is giving evidence to the enquiry now. He's not exactly covering himself in glory.
 
Welshman said:
It has been pointed out there are things which don't up in the accusations made against the accused eg why would large numbers of post masters commit offences only after a new IT system had been introduced at the same time. Do you feel another flaw in the accusation against the post masters is stealing large sums of money from the post office is something which would be impossible to hide and would deter people from committing such offences.
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Because it caught them out! Totally reliable software, I mean if there was a fault with the software the PO would have been prosecuting hundreds of people, and the PO had no knowledge that there were any concerns about the reliability of the software.

The italic bits are what the PO repeatedly lied about in court and actively conspired to cover-up and is why all the lawyers involved, all the PO staff involved should be being prosecuted for perverting the course of justice and the various other laws they knowingly and repeatedly broke.
 
catsmate said:
Also the abject lack of money trail for the alleged frauds.
Oh and Fujitsu being shown to have lied, repeatedly, regarding Horizon and (especially) their remote access capacity.
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Iif I recall correctly it has been pointed in this forum if postmasters had been stealing large sums of money what happened to this money? Were bank accounts checked to see if any large sums had been paid in? Were checks carried out if postmasters had financial problems which would make them steal huge sums of money and were suddenly resolved eg debts paid? Were any investigations carried out to see signs of extravagant spending eg holidays, new cars.
 
Welshman said:
Iif I recall correctly it has been pointed in this forum if postmasters had been stealing large sums of money what happened to this money? Were bank accounts checked to see if any large sums had been paid in? Were checks carried out if postmasters had financial problems which would make them steal huge sums of money and were suddenly resolved eg debts paid? Were any investigations carried out to see signs of extravagant spending eg holidays, new cars.
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The reliable software said the money was missing; therefore the money was missing. What they did with the missing money was not of concern to the prosecution.
 
Welshman said:
Iif I recall correctly it has been pointed in this forum if postmasters had been stealing large sums of money what happened to this money? Were bank accounts checked to see if any large sums had been paid in? Were checks carried out if postmasters had financial problems which would make them steal huge sums of money and were suddenly resolved eg debts paid? Were any investigations carried out to see signs of extravagant spending eg holidays, new cars.
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Darat said:
The reliable software said the money was missing; therefore the money was missing. What they did with the missing money was not of concern to the prosecution.
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The jurors were instructed that the Horizon data was to be considered accurate, hence no corroboration was needed. Naturally none of the investigators or prosecutors were inclined to ask awkward questions.....


I note that UKGov is talking about recouping the cost of Horizon, around three and a half billion pounds, from Fujitsu. Wouldn't that be an interesting precedent?
 
One of the PO investigators has admitted that he was aware of flaws in the Horizon system but ignored this when "investigating" alleged frauds, and deliberately sought the prosecution of one victim who dared to question the integrity of the system.
 
I hope that investigator cannot sleep at night (see comments above about It staff), but at least he's come clean. There's loads more who haven't
 
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Darat said:
I don't disagree with you in principle, but this is is a case of when asking for directions being told "I wouldn't start from here". Our current justice system cannot cope with this miscarriage of justice in a timely manner, we know this because if it could it would have already dealt with it. So to me this is exactly when "extra-judicial" means are justified. That this is yet more evidence that we do need to change our justice system (E&W) is all well and good but the victims shouldn't have to wait for any such reforms to happen.
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Our CJ system has made it harder to deal with MOJs, which I think is a sign that those in the know, know how deeply flawed and mistake-prone it is and they fear a collapse in public confidence.

That is stupid thinking, as Andrew Wilkinson awakened the public to MOJs, which meant that they were very receptive to the Post Office/Fujitsu Horizon scandal. That was bound to happen at some point.

But the culture in all public sector management, from the CJ system, to the police, to the NHS etc, is to cover up.
 
Worm said:
One of the PO inspectors is giving evidence to the enquiry now. He's not exactly covering himself in glory.
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Bradshaw has admitted that lawyers wrote one of his statements.
 
a story within the story

Carrot Flower King said:
So, now we know how the government reacts when folk discover that they've been picking on that nice Toby Jones...
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Paul Sawers wrote, "Since the start of this year, the British Post Office Scandal has dominated headlines and public conversation in the U.K. That it has taken a television drama to generate this level of attention, when the whole episode has been covered extensively in the news media for many years, is perhaps a story in itself."
 
I think that the media and public attention to the Andrew Wilkinson MOJ, helped to create interest in that topic. When the Post Office/Fujitsu drama was shown, the public were already receptive to MOJs and their interest piqued.

I predict a series of MOJ themed dramas to come and that is a good thing. There are hundreds if not thousands of MOJs waiting to get the attention they deserve.
 
catsmate said:
Also the abject lack of money trail for the alleged frauds.
Oh and Fujitsu being shown to have lied, repeatedly, regarding Horizon and (especially) their remote access capacity.
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And every single one of the sub-postmaster being told THEY were the only one's claiming to have problems with Horizon.

Each of these false prosecution cases, regardless of who the defendants were or where they were, have one thing in common - the evidence against them was false - the faulty Horizon software was making it appear as if they were cooking the books - Horizon was lying.

Its like having the sole witness against them being shown to have lied under oath - those convictions were a direct result of the false evidence, and since this was the only evidence against them, that makes those convictions unsafe.

I see no reason why all of the convicted sub-postmasters could not be represented by ONE legal firm for the purposes of an appeal. One of the firm's lawyers files an appeal on behalf of all of them, and the court hearing the appeal overturns every conviction en-masse.

With expedition, the legal side can be over in a week, and they can proceed with compensation, which can be (also expeditiously) handled by parliament.
 
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smartcooky said:
And every single one of the sub-postmaster being told THEY were the only one's claiming to have problems with Horizon.

Each of these false prosecution cases, regardless of who the defendants were or where they were, have one thing in common - the evidence against them was false - the faulty Horizon software was making it appear as if they were cooking the books - Horizon was lying.

Its like having the sole witness against them being shown to have lied under oath - those convictions were a direct result of the false evidence, and since this was the only evidence against them, that makes those convictions unsafe.

I see no reason why all of the convicted sub-postmasters could not be represented by ONE legal firm for the purposes of an appeal. One of the firm's lawyers files an appeal on behalf of all of them, and the court hearing the appeal overturns every conviction en-masse.

With expedition, the legal side can be over in a week, and they can proceed with compensation, which can be (also expeditiously) handled by parliament.
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Indeed, that's why I don't think it should be impossible for the courts to quash as unsafe, every conviction brought by the Post Office that used Horizon evidence.
 
A former postmaster on BBC East Midlands Today has just said that he was being investigated for a £7000 discrepancy by representatives of the Post Office and Fujitsu in his shop when they all witnessed Horizon make a transaction on its own!
 
Post office investigator* Stephen Bradshaw hardly covering himself in glory at the inquiry.






*Judging by his incurious nature about people bringing pertinent information to him I'm using that word only referring to his supposed role not his actions.
 
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