Why I should vote for Trump?

[stanfr]

I think the main reason Trump has so much support is that we now live in a society where 'alternative facts' rule. So, once you accept the propaganda, it is easy to believe that the economy was far better under Trump, that he really is a good businessman, that he really does care about the country, that he really does want to give government back to the people, etc etc. Facts be damned, Trump is like a spiritual medium who has suckered a good third of the nation that he speaks to the dead.

The strength alternative facts have over our electorate is exemplified by the current Nikki Haley flub. She couldn't muster the courage to say the Civil War involved slavery...because in our current society where alternative facts matter, it was *really* about state rights and it is just the woke machine that made it about slavery. Slaves were really well cared for and loved their masters. According to polls, nearly half the electorate fall into this world. In our wild west of social media, the fringe views will get undue support because they scream the loudest and are most fervent in wanting everyone to come round to their alternative fact world.

 

[smartcooky]

Why on earth is someone from New Zealand so interested in US politics? Is it because you love the US and want what's best for us?

No, its for two reasons.

1. I have relatives and friends who live there.

2. The USA is by far the world's largest and most influential economy. As such, it has significant impact on many other countries, including the one I live in. When US commodity prices increase, they increase here too. When America swings to the political right, the rest of the world goes to the right as well. When America has leaders who believe in conspiracy theories and promulgate falsehood, lies and misinformation, that disease spreads like a plague to other countries and influences people here. When large parts of the American public start to embrace anti-science rhetoric, that disease also spreads to here.

Case in point: before the pandemic, anti-vaxxers were a tiny, insignificant and amusing minority of nutjobs. The Fat Orange Turd's awful and incompetent response to the pandemic dragged his racist, redneck base along with him. They rebelled against vaccines, and lock-downs. Over a million people died from from COVID in the US. If Americans had knuckled down and gone into lockdown, over 80% of them would probably still be alive. Instead, the basket of deplorables chose to screech about "muh freedumb" - they put their own selfish, self-centred demands for personal freedumb ahead of the common good.

That attitude spread to this country and we ended up with the major protest at Parliament grounds. And how do I know this was spread here from America? By the numbers of protesters I saw flying Trump Flags & Confederate flags.

In fact, I would argue that anyone living in a small country such as mine, who does not take an interest in US politics, is walking about with a blindfold on.

The Fat Orange Turd loves authoritarians - Putin, Erdogan, Orban and Bolsonaro. He aspires to be just like them and is trying to take the US down the same path into an authoritarian dictatorship with himself as Der Trumpsführer. If that happens it will be very bad for Americans. If you think that things are bad now in respect of "guilty without trial" you just wait until The Fat Orange Turd tries Insurrection 2.0 and goes on his revenge tour.

This sort of thing came close to happening once before - you dodged a bullet in 1939

...and you dodged another one in the wake of 1/6

You've been lucky so far, but if your country keeps flirting with fascism, sooner or later, that luck will run out. If The Fat Orange Turd becomes president again, your Democracy is toast!
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[Donal]

Honestly, the "states rights" and "slaves were treated well" nonsense aren't some fringe idea. The Lost Cause Myth has been a 150-year propaganda campaign that infected schools, media, churches, and anywhere there was public discourse. And not just in the South. While someone like Nikki Hayler should know better, I can see why a lot of otherwise reasonable people can get sucked in by it.

 

[dann]

millions dead. and still dying. Millions permanently injured from the effects of COVID. Billions in long term economic damage.

In the MAGA universe, C19 isn't real and all that bad stuff was caused by restrictions, lockdowns and vaccines.

 

[stanfr]

Honestly, the "states rights" and "slaves were treated well" nonsense aren't some fringe idea. The Lost Cause Myth has been a 150-year propaganda campaign that infected schools, media, churches, and anywhere there was public discourse. And not just in the South. While someone like Nikki Hayler should know better, I can see why a lot of otherwise reasonable people can get sucked in by it.

Agreed, but it's a great example of how 'alternative facts' become mainstream, that was my point. It may not specifically be 'fringe' but it is wrapped up in many other fringe ideas that all get the same credence cause the same voices are promoting them--the biggest one being that the election was stolen. Was the election stolen? Clearly not, but its not a 'fringe belief'. It is however based on the same logic that drives flat earth or fake moon landings.

 

[acbytesla]

Thank you for confirming all the new US involved wars during the Biden Admin.

You're welcome. It also confirmed that lots of wars started under Bush, Obama and Trump. It also showed you're blaming Biden for the present wars is misplaced.

I suppose we'll see what happens when Colorado vs Trump reaches the Supreme Court.

I do like solar too. I used it at the old house with great success and have purchased 40 more panels for the new house. Just waiting on warmer weather to install. I can afford the increases to my utility bills without adding the solar, but many cannot. I'm not oblivious to their pain.

Glad to hear it. You and I are demonstrating that the best thing we can do not only for our own wallets, but others is to move away from fossil fuels as fast as we can. And not just because it's better for the environment, but because it is better economically for everyone.

There's no need for me to trash talk Biden for his personal and financial faults.
His record stands for all to see.

Personal faults? You mean that he's a God fearing Christian or that he's Catholic?

Frankly, I too don't like that he believes in a nonsense superstition. But at least he's not trying to jam those moronic beliefs down our throats.

Or that he's been married twice? That he loves his son despite his son's drug addiction?
Or that he's been a Congressperson, Senator and Vice President and President? That he never ran fraudulent charities, universities and businesses? That everything he does isn't a scam? That he doesn't lie incessantly and constantly talk about himself?

For all the Biden cheerleading everyone sees online, they'll always look to their bank account first to determine how things are in the real World.

You might be right about this.

But it really is stupid to depend on this to decide on who you vote for.

Is it Biden's policies that led to that steep uptick in inflation his second year in office? Or is it something that happened despite his actions? I'm not blaming Trump for it either. Inflation increased significantly all over the world. Seems highly unlikely that Biden is the reason. Especially when we view that major events like a major oil producing nation like Russia decided to invade its neighbors.

I for one, think Biden's policies helped substantially to prevent a far worse economy.

But I don't care about Biden. Or Trump or Obama or Bush or any politician for that matter. I care about the policies they propose and implement. Trump did nothing really outside of giving huge tax breaks to the wealthiest among us and gut environmental and economic regulations that protect us. Oh and treat anyone who oppose him in any way as garbage.

Trump failed at being the infrastructure President he promised to be.
Trump failed at building his wall.
Trump failed at making Mexico pay for it.
Trump failed at creating a better health care system.
Trump failed at protecting the environment.
Trump failed at reducing the price of prescription drugs.
Trump even failed at golfing less than Obama.

But Trump succeeded at many things.
He succeeded at enriching himself himself and his family by using the Presidency for business purposes.
He succeeded at dividing the country. Women against men. Urban against rural. Black against white. Native against Immigrant. Straight against gay. Trump was/is the great divider. Give him credit for that.

 

[acbytesla]

Honestly, the "states rights" and "slaves were treated well" nonsense aren't some fringe idea. The Lost Cause Myth has been a 150-year propaganda campaign that infected schools, media, churches, and anywhere there was public discourse. And not just in the South. While someone like Nikki Hayler should know better, I can see why a lot of otherwise reasonable people can get sucked in by it.

I agree with all of this but the last sentence.

It only takes 5 minutes of research to understand that the State's right that led to the civil war was slavery. Saying the issue was "State's Rights" was and is the most obvious red herring ever.

Nikki Haley does know better. But openly lying about the Civil War has never been a vice for dishonest politicians. I was going to say Republicans, but remembered that for 80 years it was Southern Democrats that told this whopper.

Interestingly enough, the Civil Was wasn't started to protect State's Rights to own slaves in existing States, but to protect the rights of future States to own slaves.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I think the main reason Trump has so much support is that we now live in a society where 'alternative facts' rule.

My pet theory is that a great many (possibly most) people navigate their way through life by believing things they want to believe. Wishful thinking. They don't exercise critical thinking, they come up with (or are fed) a story they wish/hope/want to be true, so they believe it. It's not limited to politics, of course, but that's where it can be effectively used by anyone who knows what story to construct and who to peddle it to.

 

[angrysoba]

My pet theory is that a great many (possibly most) people navigate their way through life by believing things they want to believe. Wishful thinking. They don't exercise critical thinking, they come up with (or are fed) a story they wish/hope/want to be true, so they believe it. It's not limited to politics, of course, but that's where it can be effectively used by anyone who knows what story to construct and who to peddle it to.

Wishful thinking and fearful thinking.

The electorate are indeed fed stories and if it resonates then the volume gets turned right up on it. A good example might be critical race theory. Remember how that was almost everywhere? For about six months! Does anyone even bother talking about it any more?

Remember when gay marriage was a huge issue? The idea was that if this goes through the next thing will be dogs and cats living together. Who cares about it now? No Republican is (yet) going to run against it. No Republican is going to be full-throated anti-abortion either. The campaigns work out which will work in which particular year.

I guess this time round it is immigration. Or trans stuff. Though they haven’t quite settled on the main issue yet.

 

[acbytesla]

My pet theory is that a great many (possibly most) people navigate their way through life by believing things they want to believe. Wishful thinking. They don't exercise critical thinking, they come up with (or are fed) a story they wish/hope/want to be true, so they believe it. It's not limited to politics, of course, but that's where it can be effectively used by anyone who knows what story to construct and who to peddle it to.

I give you christianity. And most other religions. Hell, the religion that dominates American society starts out with a talking snake, a talking donkey, a 500 year old man building a boat and gathering all of the earth's creatures. An impossibly old man completing a logistically impossible task without a single modern convenience. A still impossible task even with them. It continues with humans instantly turning into salt, a man living inside a whale for three days. A horn knocking down stone walls. A man with super human strength losing it because his hair was cut. Walking sticks turning into snakes, a sea being parted with God's nostrils and so on and so on and so on.

Yet people still fill the pews and collection plates and listen intently to the con artist that preaches to them every Sunday.

I'm amazed that modern human beings still are conned by this garbage. But they are. It shouldn't be surprising that Hitler and Trump lived and prospered peddling the big lie.

 

[johnny karate]

I was going to say Republicans, but remembered that for 80 years it was Southern Democrats that told this whopper.

Yesterday’s Southern Democrats are today’s Republicans, so you’re fine just saying “Republicans”.

 

[Solitaire]

This sort of thing came close to happening once before - you dodged a bullet in 1939.
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Is this from Rachel Maddow book, Prequel: An American Fight Against Fascism?

 

[smartcooky]

Is this from Rachel Maddow book, Prequel: An American Fight Against Fascism?

Yep.

Its a fascinating read for anyone interested in the history of the rise of Nazi Germany between the wars, and the history of the USA.

Rachel Maddow is a way better author than she gives herself credit for.

Here is "A Night at the Garden", Madison Square Garden, February 20, 1939

 

[Paul2]

He committed rape, that is what is in the actual judgement, you can say he raped someone and that has been proven in court. Not that it should really matter, someone who has sexually assaulted someone should be as impossible to be considered a candidate for president as a rapist. That an actual rapist is the front runner for one of the parties, it beggars belief.

The result of the Carroll case was that Trump committed sexual abuse but not rape. The actual jury forms are here.

 

[acbytesla]

The result of the Carroll case was that Trump committed sexual abuse but not rape. The actual jury forms are here.

Trump attempted to sue E Jean Carroll of defaming him by saying that he raped her. The judge dismissed the case stating that no she did not. New York State has a rather narrow definition of rape. It requires penis penetration. Other states define it as penetration any object. E J Carroll testified that she wasn't sure whether he forcibly penetrated her with his fingers or his penis.

Therefore saying that Trump raped her was not a false statement.

 

[tyr_13]

The result of the Carroll case was that Trump committed sexual abuse but not rape. The actual jury forms are here.

Even the judge in the case said it is 'substantially true' to say Trump raped Carroll in the way the word is used and understood commonly.

Specifically, the jury didn't find enough to say Trump inserted his penis into her. The other acts they did find he committed meet the standard of 'rape' as it is commonly understood.

So, yeah, he's a rapist. He's a rapist in the way most people think when someone is called one in everyday language.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

The argument actually comes from the Atlantic. And you didn't seem to be bothered by anyone's nationality before.

I've never had any issue with anyone's nationality but US politics requires a different sort of concept of understanding that citizens of other Countries are unable or unwilling to grasp.

Take for instance, gun control. Many outside the US are prohibited from owning firearms in their home Country. That's fine by me if they're comfortable letting their Government control their ability to arm themselves or indeed defend themselves. But, that does not apply here in the US. Many will then argue that US citizens should not be allowed private gun ownership and lay out various reasons why it's better if we can't own firearms. Mass shootings, murder, crime etc. Sure, in a perfect World, nobody would need a firearm. But it's not a perfect World and no matter what, bad people will always find a way to kill others. Take away guns, they'll use knives. I've seen efforts in different Countries to now ban knives. OK, take away the knives, they'll use hammers or something else. Should they take everything away? How about alcohol? Alcohol is absolutely responsible for a great number of deaths each year. In those places that prohibit firearms (and soon possibly knives), I'll bet one can still get plastered and go driving. It's impossible for someone who is prohibited from owning firearms to understand the reasons why I'm not in the US.

Conservative US values clash with many Liberal World views and that's ok in my opinion. I enjoy firearms and like many of my US friends and neighbors, I own several. If it weren't for me and people like me, the US would still be a Colony of Great Britain. (no hard feelings on this end toward my British friends but it's true)

Typically, Republicans are strong 2nd Amendment candidates and Democrats seem to lean more toward gun control here or outright banning things I tend to own. I don't like that. Their version of the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) tends to try to make me into a felony lawbreaking criminal more often than not for past purchases that were 100% legal at the time. I don't like that either as I'm not a criminal and I'm not involved in criminal activities in any shape or form. I often agree with small common sense sacrifices such as background checks prior to firearm purchases but that's where it ends. The Government has no business knowing my business.

That's just one example of why outside opinion of US politics is impossible. I have the ability to see and understand their point of view, but reciprocity of views is a thing I value in discussion and try as they may (or not) it just doesn't click for them.

 

[smartcooky]

I've never had any issue with anyone's nationality but US politics requires a different sort of concept of understanding that citizens of other Countries are unable or unwilling to grasp. Take for instance, gun control. Many outside the US are prohibited from owning firearms in their home Country. That's fine by me if they're comfortable letting their Government control their ability to arm themselves or indeed defend themselves. But, that does not apply here in the US. Many will then argue that US citizens should not be allowed private gun ownership and lay out various reasons why it's better if we can't own firearms. Mass shootings, murder, crime etc. Sure, in a perfect World, nobody would need a firearm. But it's not a perfect World and no matter what, bad people will always find a way to kill others. Take away guns, they'll use knives. I've seen efforts in different Countries to now ban knives. OK, take away the knives, they'll use hammers or something else. Should they take everything away? How about alcohol? Alcohol is absolutely responsible for a great number of deaths each year. In those places that prohibit firearms (and soon possibly knives), I'll bet one can still get plastered and go driving. It's impossible for someone who is prohibited from owning firearms to understand the reasons why I'm not in the US. Conservative US values clash with many Liberal World views and that's ok in my opinion. I enjoy firearms and like many of my US friends and neighbors, I own several. If it weren't for me and people like me, the US would still be a Colony of Great Britain. (no hard feelings on this end toward my British friends but it's true) Typically, Republicans are strong 2nd Amendment candidates and Democrats seem to lean more toward gun control here or outright banning things I tend to own. I don't like that. Their version of the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) tends to try to make me into a felony lawbreaking criminal more often than not for past purchases that were 100% legal at the time. I don't like that either as I'm not a criminal and I'm not involved in criminal activities in any shape or form. I often agree with small common sense sacrifices such as background checks prior to firearm purchases but that's where it ends. The Government has no business knowing my business. That's just one example of why outside opinion of US politics is impossible. I have the ability to see and understand their point of view, but reciprocity of views is a thing I value in discussion and try as they may (or not) it just doesn't click for them.

Translation: You've got nothing, and you know it!

You won't address my post because you can't, at least, not without lying.

Your bleating about me not being a USAian is just a pathetic excuse, one that everyone here sees right through.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Translation: You've got nothing, and you know it!

You won't address my post because you can't, at least, not without lying.

Your bleating about me not being a USAian is just a pathetic excuse, one that everyone here sees right through.

Dude, you don't like Trump. I get it. I'm still going to vote for him and there's nothing you can say or do to change that. Please feel free to indulge yourself with any anti-Trump fantasy you wish. I'd appreciate it if you can find the ability to forgo personal attacks, but I'm not holding my breath that you can or will.

 

[Paul2]

Even the judge in the case said it is 'substantially true' to say Trump raped Carroll in the way the word is used and understood commonly.

Specifically, the jury didn't find enough to say Trump inserted his penis into her. The other acts they did find he committed meet the standard of 'rape' as it is commonly understood.

So, yeah, he's a rapist. He's a rapist in the way most people think when someone is called one in everyday language.

I’m happy to stand corrected.

However, let me explore this just a bit more. Exactly what did Trump to Carroll that we’d commonly call rape but wasn’t penetration with his penis? I haven’t heard those gory details, and I’m not sure I’m happy to now, but I guess I got in for a penny, so now I’m in for a pound.

ETA: looks like I’m capable of doing my own research. It was digital penetration. Yeah, so, rape.