General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[JoeMorgue]

I see your point (and agree with it), but Hong Kong isn't really the best example here. Hong Kong isn't an independent state, as the protestors there found to their dismay. Not only because it's claimed by China, nor because it's recognized to be part of China by the rest of the world, but because it is in fact part of China, in being as much under the control of Beijing as any other part of the country.

Taiwan, which isn't recognized by most countries, would be a fitting example, though. Again, your actual point stands.

Looking back I think my brain was actually thinking Taiwan and I had a brain fart.

 

[Hercules56]

Not really, your question was about "offering" Palestinians worldwide to accept the Israeli domain.
Gaza and the Westbank are only part of the equation. Are you failing to grasp that?

Israel has specific laws about what constitutes 'automatic citizenship' and it only applies to Jews.
That is not a crime, it's not immoral, it's not even unusual worldwide. Nations get to determine who they want to be part of that nation.
People have been thrown out, evicted, relocated, killed, reduced to groveling status, whatever, for eons.

You want to change "The way of the World"? Nobody is stopping you, but don't expect me to get onboard with the Palestinian Right of Return (to overcome and replace Israel, from the River to the Sea).
I prefer to deal in what is, and what can practically be done, not pie-in-the-sky stuff which has virtually no chance of succeeding.

You misunderstood my question.

 

[webfusion]

You misunderstood my question.

Actually, it was you who misstated the proposition.
It makes no sense to just talk about the territories. That's not a rational position to take in light of what everyone knows about the demand that Israel permit the entire Palestinian people to come and live here.

Once you start the ball rolling ("Palestinians are offered citizenship, they are welcome to become Israelis in the OneState solution") then you have to include all Palestinians worldwide. Attempting to isolate Gaza residents or Westbank residents or Jerusalem residents, is a non-starter. What part of that are you misundersanding?

 

[Hercules56]

Actually, it was you who misstated the proposition.
It makes no sense to just talk about the territories....

Says....you.

These are all merely hypotheticals. And in my hypothetical Arabs who already live in the West Bank and Gaza get preference over all others.

 

[webfusion]

Says....you..

Says the HAMAS Covenant -- Article 11
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

These are all merely hypotheticals. .

The entire basis of Islam in Jerusalem is a hypothetical (A winged flying horse is involved)

.

And in my hypothetical Arabs who already live in the West Bank and Gaza get preference over all others.

And I merely pointed out that you invented a scenario that's about as far from what truly exists on planet Earth as you possibly could.
That's not a rational position to take in light of what everyone knows about the demand that Israel permit the entire Palestinian people to come and live here. (link added)

I just noticed a clear image of AbuMazen (he's gained a lot of weight) and right there on his jacket lapel is a pin of a rusty key.
That symbol has nothing to do with being offered Israeli citizenship "in Gaza" or "the Westbank"

 

[Hercules56]

Says the HAMAS Covenant -- Article 11
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?



The entire basis of Islam in Jerusalem is a hypothetical (A winged flying horse is involved)

.
And I merely pointed out that you invented a scenario that's about as far from what truly exists on planet Earth as you possibly could.
That's not a rational position to take in light of what everyone knows about the demand that Israel permit the entire Palestinian people to come and live here. (link added)

I just noticed a clear image of AbuMazen (he's gained a lot of weight) and right there on his jacket lapel is a pin of a rusty key.
That symbol has nothing to do with being offered Israeli citizenship "in Gaza" or "the Westbank"

No final peace treaty will involve the right of EVERY and ALL Palestinians to return to the state of Israel, so you can move on from that silly red herring.

 

[webfusion]

No final peace treaty will involve the right of EVERY and ALL Palestinians to return to the state of Israel, so you can move on from that silly red herring.

You still are thinking that a peace treaty will include ANY returning at all.
No indeed. That trolley has long left the station. Asides from a minor amount of humanitarian reunifications, the bulk of Palestinian immigration to this area will be into Gaza/N.Sinai and it will be maintained and developed as a Nation-State in statu Nascendi. The IDF will provide security, along with perhaps an expanded UN MFO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_Force_and_Observers

What? There are already UN multinational forces in the Sinai? Who knew!

ALong with the returnees coming in as a matter of course, the refugees of WestBank will be provided with financial incentivization to move the 50-miles or so across the way, and probably a new apartment as Gaza reconstructs. along with vouchers for pilgrimages annually for the whole family (and resort-hotel accommodations during their tour in either Hebron or Bethlehem, both being easily accessible by train & taxi for the residents of NewState of Palestine).

 

[theprestige]

No final peace treaty will involve the right of EVERY and ALL Palestinians to return to the state of Israel, so you can move on from that silly red herring.

Hamas's point - a principle of Islamofascism in general - is that there will never be a final peace treaty.

Show me a world where the Palestinians have embraced secularism and repudiated anti-Semitism, and I'll show you a world that's ready to talk about a "final peace treaty" in Palestine. Until that day, though? Jog the **** on, with your red herring final treaty nonsense. You know and I know that what Hamas is selling, and Palestinians are buying isn't a final treaty, but a final solution.

 

[Hercules56]

You still are thinking that a peace treaty will include ANY returning at all.
No indeed. That trolley has long left the station. Asides from a minor amount of humanitarian reunifications, the bulk of Palestinian immigration to this area will be into Gaza/N.Sinai and it will be maintained and developed as a Nation-State in statu Nascendi. The IDF will provide security, along with perhaps an expanded UN MFO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_Force_and_Observers

What? There are already UN multinational forces in the Sinai? Who knew!

ALong with the returnees coming in as a matter of course, the refugees of WestBank will be provided with financial incentivization, and probably a new apartment, along with vouchers for pilgrimages annually for the whole family (and accommodations in either Hebron or Bethlehem, both being easily accessible for the residents of NewState of Palestine).

No, any return of refugees I will involve hundreds of thousands returning to the new state of Palestine which will exist inside the West Bank and Gaza. Right of return to the state of Israel? I don't know if that's going to happen. Maybe just a token number, say 100,000. But like I said the bulk of refugees will return to the new state of Palestine which will be inside the West Bank and Gaza. How much of the West Bank I don't know but currently the settlements only occupy 5% so the state of Palestine could theoretically take up at least 90%.

 

[Hercules56]

Hamas's point - a principle of Islamofascism in general - is that there will never be a final peace treaty.

Show me a world where the Palestinians have embraced secularism and repudiated anti-Semitism, and I'll show you a world that's ready to talk about a "final peace treaty" in Palestine. Until that day, though? Jog the **** on, with your red herring final treaty nonsense. You know and I know that what Hamas is selling, and Palestinians are buying isn't a final treaty, but a final solution.

Israel isn't a secular state, so why should Palestine be?

 

[webfusion]

OK, some chinks in the fascist HAMAS rule in Gaza are begining to open up.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/gazans-turn-hamas-food-shortage-120846775.html

Desperate Palestinians have begun attacking Hamas security forces.
"You can tell they (regular Gazans) are at a breaking point."

 

[webfusion]

No, any return of refugees I will involve hundreds of thousands returning to the new state of Palestine which will exist inside the West Bank and Gaza. Right of return to the state of Israel? I don't know if that's going to happen. Maybe just a token number, say 100,000. But like I said the bulk of refugees will return to the new state of Palestine which will be inside the West Bank and Gaza. How much of the West Bank I don't know but currently the settlements only occupy 5% so the state of Palestine could theoretically take up at least 90%.

Fuggeddaboudit.

 

[Hercules56]

Fuggeddaboudit.

Its cool, the Palestinian Arabs are a very patient people.

 

[webfusion]

Israel isn't a secular state, so why should Palestine be?

Israel is a secular NationState. It has no theological aspect governmentally or Constitutionally (well, there's no offical Constitution, but BasicLaws). Just because there are parties in the cabinet colation who are strict religious pious Jews, doesn't make the State of Israel a theocracy.
Do we honor and respect and celebrate Jewish traditions, Jewish holidays, Jewish customs communally and socially? Of course. So do the Jews in Brooklyn. Or Lakewood, NJ. Or Toronto, or Los Angeles.

Palestinians of the Islamic faith would likely see to it that NewPalestine incorporates religious clerics into their government and maintains a fairly high level of communal observance, out of respect.
Would it be to the extent of Iran? Probably not. (I would hope not!)

 

[webfusion]

Its cool, the Palestinian Arabs are a very patient people.

So are Jews. So are Jews. I think we even might have a patent on it.

We were patient with the Gazans, thinking they were moving a little towards.... something.
How wrong we were proven to be.
So, now, TheWorld™ needs a bit more patience while we continue to engage this armed and dangerous enemy and kill them as we find them.

 

[Hercules56]

Israel is a secular NationState. It has no theological aspect governmentally or Constitutionally (well, there's no offical Constitution, but BasicLaws). Just because there are parties in the cabinet colation who are strict religious pious Jews, doesn't make the State of Israel a theocracy.
Do we honor and respect and celebrate Jewish traditions, Jewish holidays, Jewish customs communally and socially? Of course. So do the Jews in Brooklyn. Or Lakewood, NJ. Or Toronto, or Los Angeles.

Palestinians of the Islamic faith would likely see to it that NewPalestine incorporates religious clerics into their government and maintains a fairly high level of communal observance, out of respect.
Would it be to the extent of Iran? Probably not. (I would hope not!)

Let us know when marriage and divorce and public transportation isn't completely under the control of Sky God worshippers.

 

[theprestige]

Israel isn't a secular state, so why should Palestine be?

I have no opinion about that. I'm saying that Islamofascism is a genocidal ideology, and that a final treaty with Palestinians is not possible until they renounce that ideology.

 

[theprestige]

Let us know when marriage and divorce and public transportation isn't completely under the control of Sky God worshippers.

Let us know when Islamofascism no longer poses an existential threat to Jews everywhere m

 

[Leumas]

I have no opinion about that. I'm saying that Islamofascism & Zionism is a are genocidal ideology ideologies, and that a final treaty with between Israelis & Palestinians is not possible until they renounce that ideology those ideologies.

I fixed your above post so that it would more accurately and rationally and objectively reflect the truth... instead of the biased HALF truth as you had it before.

 

[Leumas]

The South African model is simply democracy. One man, one vote.

Would that satisfy you?

Yes... I am the one who wrote the post you are replying to... in which I propose the Solution to the Israel/Palestine atrocity as using the same solution applied to South Africa....

Nevertheless... it is not I who has to be satisfied since I do not belong to that miserable wretched place.... will YOU be satisfied...

The real question is... will it satisfy the Zionists? And they are the ones and only ones that matter...

I doubt it... most of the Afrikaans did not like it either.