General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[lobosrul5]

ALL Palestinian Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank are under Israeli control. Israel controls the overall security situation and the borders. Nothing gets in or out of the West Bank without Israel saying ok. Legally they are still Occupied according to the 4thGC.

Why oh why would Israel feel justified in policing what goes into Gaza. Could it be all the rockets, bombs, and guns that Hamas uses to massacre them? Could that maybe be it... hmmm not sure if its justified at all

 

[Hercules56]

I said political control. That task officially falls upon the PNA. If they want to disband the PNA, and declare their loyalty to, and respect for Israel as citizens, and participate in developing the JewishState alongside Zionists that's something to consider, I guess.
It's pretty far fetched.

The 4thGC? The Geneva Conventions do not define occupation. Yet, the elements of an occupation can be found in Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations.

Who did the Israelis take (& occupy) the territories from? Not the Palestinians.
After 1967, Israel was a non-belligerent occupier. We sought to encourage a path towards self-determination for the residents of these (previously) Jordanian & Egyptian lands.
All we got was No No No.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartoum_Resolution

Not going to get into a stupid argument with you about whether the West Bank was legally "occupied" by Israel. That horse has been beaten to death. We know what the law says.

Anyways, yes, the Arabs could be offered full citizenship but they must swear allegiance to Israel and to follow its laws.

 

[webfusion]

Do you live in a SYG state?

None of your business.
Thirty-eight states are stand-your-ground states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

 

[Ziggurat]

Anyways, yes, the Arabs could be offered full citizenship but they must swear allegiance to Israel and to follow its laws.

Do you think they all would? Do you think this would satisfy Hamas members? Would they give up violence in exchange?

 

[webfusion]

Not going to get into a stupid argument with you about whether the West Bank was legally "occupied" by Israel. That horse has been beaten to death. We know what the law says.

Anyways, yes, the Arabs could be offered full citizenship but they must swear allegiance to Israel and to follow its laws.

Israel considers the entirety of the ex-Jordanian territory west of the river to be 'disputed' (that is the crux of the entire reason Jews live there, and is not a 'stupid' legal argument).
We know what the law says.

Are the residents of American Samoa "full citizens" ? (they are officially classified as "U.S. nationals")

 

[Hercules56]

Israel considers the entirety of the ex-Jordanian territory west of the river to be 'disputed' (that is the crux of the entire reason Jews live there, and is not a 'stupid' legal argument)...

Actually it is.

Moving on.

 

[Hercules56]

Do you think they all would? Do you think this would satisfy Hamas members? Would they give up violence in exchange?

I think if offered, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank would accept full Israeli citizenship. Maybe more.

 

[Hercules56]

None of your business.
Thirty-eight states are stand-your-ground states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

OK, well be careful. If you point a gun at someone who is not threatening imminent physical harm, you're going to prison. I also live in a state that allows open carry of long guns but I have no intention of walking around looking to kill people with my Weatherby.

 

[webfusion]

Actually it is.

Moving on.

So, sue us.

Moving on...

I think if offered, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank would accept full Israeli citizenship. Maybe more.

What evidence can you provide to support such a claim?

===========
As for 'pointing' a gun, I don't need to point it, I just need to have it slung across my chest. with my hands on it, at the ready.
I'm former IDF, and know how to handle a loaded gun. My perception of the gun is self-defense tool.
I have no intention of walking around looking to kill people.

 

[Hercules56]

So, sue us.

Moving on...

I think if offered, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank would accept full Israeli citizenship. Maybe more.

What evidence can you provide to support such a claim?

===========
As for 'pointing' a gun, I don't need to point it, I just need to have it slung across my chest. with my hands on it, at the ready.
I'm former IDF, and know how to handle a loaded gun. My perception of the gun is self-defense tool.
I have no intention of walking around looking to kill people.

81,000 Arabs in East Jerusalem have applied for citizenship, there are 350,000 Arabs in East Jerusalem.

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/01/palestinians-seek-israeli-citizenship-jerusalem

 

[webfusion]

The non-Jews in ex-Jordanian Jerusalem are permanent residents of Israel. They already carry Israeli I.D cards, as nationals of our country. They have no affiliation with the PalestinianNationalAuthority whatsoever.
Article 5 of the Israeli Nationality Law: Palestinian residents of Jerusalem can apply for citizenship if several conditions are met, including having some knowledge of the Hebrew language, having resided in Israel's capital city for the last three years, swearing an oath of loyalty to the State of Israel and giving up their Jordanian passport. Moreover, these residents should not harbor any animosity toward Israel.
Palestinians are refraining from submitting requests for citizenship, as this could be interpreted as recognition by them of Israel’s sovereignty over the city.

I noticed that the article did not reveal how many of the 81,000 applicants were granted approval.
It just says "only a limited number of them" and that could mean anything (20,000? 45,000? 10?)
Just as the USA -- or any country --- vetts and evaluates those who wish to become citizens (not all applications are approved).

 

[Hercules56]

The non-Jews in ex-Jordanian Jerusalem are permanent residents of Israel. They already carry Israeli I.D cards, as nationals of our country. They have no affiliation with the PalestinianNationalAuthority whatsoever.
Article 5 of the Israeli Nationality Law: Palestinian residents of Jerusalem can apply for citizenship if several conditions are met, including having some knowledge of the Hebrew language, having resided in Israel's capital city for the last three years, swearing an oath of loyalty to the State of Israel and giving up their Jordanian passport. Moreover, these residents should not harbor any animosity toward Israel.
Palestinians are refraining from submitting requests for citizenship, as this could be interpreted as recognition by them of Israel’s sovereignty over the city.

I noticed that the article did not reveal how many of the 81,000 applicants were granted approval.
It just says "only a limited number of them" and that could mean anything (20,000? 45,000? 10?)
Just as the USA -- or any country --- vetts and evaluates those who wish to become citizens (not all applications are approved).

The question was about how many might apply. Of course Israel rejects as many as possible as they dont want more non-Jewish citizens.

 

[Hercules56]

The non-Jews in ex-Jordanian Jerusalem are permanent residents of Israel. They already carry Israeli I.D cards, as nationals of our country. They have no affiliation with the PalestinianNationalAuthority whatsoever.
Article 5 of the Israeli Nationality Law: Palestinian residents of Jerusalem can apply for citizenship if several conditions are met, including having some knowledge of the Hebrew language, having resided in Israel's capital city for the last three years, swearing an oath of loyalty to the State of Israel and giving up their Jordanian passport. Moreover, these residents should not harbor any animosity toward Israel.
Palestinians are refraining from submitting requests for citizenship, as this could be interpreted as recognition by them of Israel’s sovereignty over the city.

I noticed that the article did not reveal how many of the 81,000 applicants were granted approval.
It just says "only a limited number of them" and that could mean anything (20,000? 45,000? 10?)
Just as the USA -- or any country --- vetts and evaluates those who wish to become citizens (not all applications are approved).

Citizenship should be automatic whenever a nation conquers territory and then annexes it, for those who reside there.

 

[webfusion]

The question was about how many might apply. Of course Israel rejects as many as possible as they dont want more non-Jewish citizens.

Not really, your question was about "offering" Palestinians worldwide to accept the Israeli domain.
Gaza and the Westbank are only part of the equation. Are you failing to grasp that?

Israel has specific laws about what constitutes 'automatic citizenship' and it only applies to Jews.
That is not a crime, it's not immoral, it's not even unusual worldwide. Nations get to determine who they want to be part of that nation.
People have been thrown out, evicted, relocated, killed, reduced to groveling status, whatever, for eons.

You want to change "The way of the World"? Nobody is stopping you, but don't expect me to get onboard with the Palestinian Right of Return (to overcome and replace Israel, from the River to the Sea).
I prefer to deal in what is, and what can practically be done, not pie-in-the-sky stuff which has virtually no chance of succeeding.

 

[Hercules56]

Not really, your question was about "offering" Palestinians worldwide to accept the Israeli domain.
Gaza and the Westbank are only part of the equation. Are you failing to grasp that?

Israel has specific laws about what constitutes 'automatic citizenship' and it only applies to Jews.
That is not a crime, it's not immoral, it's not even unusual worldwide. Nations get to determine who they want to be part of that nation.
People have been thrown out, evicted, relocated, killed, reduced to groveling status, whatever, for eons.

You want to change "The way of the World"? Nobody is stopping you, but don't expect me to get onboard with the Palestinian Right of Return (to overcome and replace Israel, from the River to the Sea).
I prefer to deal in what is, and what can practically be done, not pie-in-the-sky stuff which has virtually no chance of succeeding.

I am only talking about the West Bank and Gaza as Israel controls those territories. They were conquered in 1967.

East Jerusalem was annexed in 1970 and all residents should be offered citizenship in my opinion. Its immoral not to offer citizenship to citizens of a territory that you conquer in war. I also believe all residents of the West Bank and Gaza should be able to apply for Israeli citizenship as they are ultimately under Israeli control.

US citizens who live in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam can vote in US Federal elections if they move to the 50 states.

 

[webfusion]

Sorry but you cannot just talk about the territories. That's not a rational position to take in light of what everyone knows about the demand that Israel permit the entire Palestinian people to come and live here.

Jersalem was unifed during wartime in 1967.
The actual date of the application of Israeli Law and sovereignty was on July 30, 1980 (not 1970) as the Israeli Knesset ratified the Basic Law on Jerusalem.

The Palestinians therein have an option to take advantage of Article 5 of the Israeli Nationality Law.
Their applications will be reviewed and qualifications investigated, on a case-by-case basis.
Some get their wish to become Israeli citizens, some don't, and they must remain as 'nationals'

This whole concept of Palestinians 'carte blanche' becoming Israelis, it's just not happening and nobody, nowhere is gonna force the Jews of Israel to go along with it.
Not BDS, not Hamas, not the Iranians, not the Saudis, not UN, not Egypt, not Jordan.

 

[Ziggurat]

I think if offered, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank would accept full Israeli citizenship. Maybe more.

That wasn't my question. I'm asking, would the radicals actually abide by Israeli law? Or would they just use citizenship as an opportunity to attack from inside? It's not enough that some Palestinians would obey the law. How many wouldn't? What would be the consequences from those who didn't?

Do you really not get the risks involved?

 

[Roboramma]

Look at all the pro-Palestinian, calls for a ceasefire, protests around the world. The people want the fighting to stop, only governments support the continued fighting.

This is a different claim than the one you were criticized for. You specifically claimed that the people of the UK don't support the war because they are the ones who would be dying. That's a ridiculous claim, and clearly false. It's equally false of those in engaging in "protests around the world". Whatever it is that differentiates those who support the war from those who oppose it, it's not the likelihood of dying in the conflict.

 

[Roboramma]

There is no such thing as a "legit country" because the only thing that makes a country a country is other countries agreeing you are a country. That's how we live in a world where Vatican City is a country and Hong Kong is not and absolutely no objective definition of "Country" you can make where that can make sense.

I see your point (and agree with it), but Hong Kong isn't really the best example here. Hong Kong isn't an independent state, as the protestors there found to their dismay. Not only because it's claimed by China, nor because it's recognized to be part of China by the rest of the world, but because it is in fact part of China, in being as much under the control of Beijing as any other part of the country.

Taiwan, which isn't recognized by most countries, would be a fitting example, though. Again, your actual point stands.

 

[Nessie]

This is a different claim than the one you were criticized for. You specifically claimed that the people of the UK don't support the war because they are the ones who would be dying. That's a ridiculous claim, and clearly false.

When a country goes to war, its citizens, rather than its government, do the dying. That explains the UK survey result.

It's equally false of those in engaging in "protests around the world". Whatever it is that differentiates those who support the war from those who oppose it, it's not the likelihood of dying in the conflict.

Normal people just want to get on with their lives. Men of violence who get into power want fighting, but they try their best to dodge that themselves, instead getting normal people to do it for them.

Peaceful, normal Palestinians and Israelis are being forced into fighting for a small group of powerful men of violence.