General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[The Atheist]

It's always so gratifying to see people justifying atrocities.

 

[webfusion]

It's always so gratifying to see people justifying atrocities.

You must be referring to the hundreds of thousands of protestors in the streets of NY, LA, London, Paris, (and those red hands of the useful idiots in Fort Worth, Texas, who don't even know of the 2000 Ramallah lynch, now THERE was an atrocity that I'm sure they didn't intend to compare themselves to, but they did).
All of them are saying that HAMAS perpetrating those 10-7 atrocities was justified, because Palestine must be Free (judenrein) From the River to the Sea. Ipso facto, doing what they did is certainly proper and fine & dandy.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

it's not a war - it's an anti-terrorist action. Only one side is a State Actor.
calling it a War is a deliberate cheat to hide behind rules of conflict that are not applicable.

And just because your opponent commits atrocities DOES NOT give you the right to commit atrocities right back - people should be embarrassed that they keep on making this argument.

The very best argument you can make is from a "end justifies the means" perspective, but that would require Israel to formulate and publicize a plan for what comes after that would lead to a much better outcome for Israeli and Gazans alike.
Retaliation for its own sake IS NOT A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE !

 

[lionking]

it's not a war - it's an anti-terrorist action. Only one side is a State Actor.
calling it a War is a deliberate cheat to hide behind rules of conflict that are not applicable.

And just because your opponent commits atrocities DOES NOT give you the right to commit atrocities right back - people should be embarrassed that they keep on making this argument.

The very best argument you can make is from a "end justifies the means" perspective, but that would require Israel to formulate and publicize a plan for what comes after that would lead to a much better outcome for Israeli and Gazans alike.
Retaliation for its own sake IS NOT A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE !

Back in the real world, what would the US or any other country with military capability have done in the same circumstances?

As I have said previously, Israel showed uncommon restraint in its response to terrorism. Other countries would have attacked in a heartbeat.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Back in the real world, what would the US or any other country with military capability have done in the same circumstances?

As I have said previously, Israel showed uncommon restraint in its response to terrorism. Other countries would have attacked in a heartbeat.

we know what the US did do, in Mosul, for example - 20,000 civilian deaths at least.
But at least they had the will to stay put and try to make things better.
Netanyahu is on record saying that he has no such plan.

And no, there is not much restraint visible from anyone but the very pro-Israel media here.
And what we see is the result of massive US pressure.

 

[lionking]

we know what the US did do, in Mosul, for example - 20,000 civilian deaths at least.
But at least they had the will to stay put and try to make things better.
Netanyahu is on record saying that he has no such plan.

And no, there is not much restraint visible from anyone but the very pro-Israel media here.
And what we see is the result of massive US pressure.

Wow. I never thought that IS attacked the US and killed over 1000 US citizens. Learn something new each day…..

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Wow. I never thought that IS attacked the US and killed over 1000 US citizens. Learn something new each day…..

I'm sorry.
is your argument that the US had no legitimacy to fight the IS?

You asked what the US would have done - and we know that from 9/11 - and it is weird that I have to spell this out, as the current conflict is being compared to the aftermath of 9/11 all the time.

The fight of Mosul happened under the same authorization that allowed the US to invade Afghanistan and Iraq in the first place, namely to prevent another 9/11 by stamping out the support for terrorists.

This is the claim of Israel why they bomb and invade Gaza: to stamp out a terrorist organization, namely Hamas, to protect their home country.
And we know, but you didn't realize, what the US did in response when in the same situation with the same rationalization.

Do you think it was right was the US did, and do you think it's right what the IDF is doing?
And don't you think there are some lessons that should have been learned by now?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

The very best argument you can make is from a "end justifies the means" perspective, but that would require Israel to formulate and publicize a plan for what comes after that would lead to a much better outcome for Israeli and Gazans alike.
Retaliation for its own sake IS NOT A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE !

Netanyahu has already said that Israel will not occupy or govern Gaza once the military action has ended.
It seems the plan- from what he's said, and from what the US has said- is to give control to the Palestinian Authority, and establish a civilian, non-terrorist and hopefully more democratic government in Gaza.
Sounds entirely reasonable to me.

 

[lionking]

I'm sorry.
is your argument that the US had no legitimacy to fight the IS?

You asked what the US would have done - and we know that from 9/11 - and it is weird that I have to spell this out, as the current conflict is being compared to the aftermath of 9/11 all the time.

The fight of Mosul happened under the same authorization that allowed the US to invade Afghanistan and Iraq in the first place, namely to prevent another 9/11 by stamping out the support for terrorists.

This is the claim of Israel why they bomb and invade Gaza: to stamp out a terrorist organization, namely Hamas, to protect their home country.
And we know, but you didn't realize, what the US did in response when in the same situation with the same rationalization.

Do you think it was right was the US did, and do you think it's right what the IDF is doing?
And don't you think there are some lessons that should have been learned by now?

That already long bow just stretched beyond breaking point.

 

[Nessie]

No, that's not my argument at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

Remember that, when you make claims about what others have said.

 

[Nessie]

I had to open the link to even understand that what you were describing/claiming is NOT a poll of Israeli attitudes, but rather, the UK.

A bit dishonest, if you ask me, but whatever...

As for a ceasefire in-place, has it not occurred to anyone that once such a thing happens (and it will, eventually) the Israelis may just say, OK, we're here, you're over there. We're going to erect a fenceline along the ceasefire 'borders' (armistice lines) and call it a day.

That's what happened in 1949.
(Rhodes Ceasefire)

The only place where that split between the public who want a ceasefire and the government who wants to fight may not exist, is Israel.

 

[Nessie]

The UK public would do the dying in a war between Israel and Gaza? What nonsense are you trying to peddle, here?

Look at all the pro-Palestinian, calls for a ceasefire, protests around the world. The people want the fighting to stop, only governments support the continued fighting.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

That already long bow just stretched beyond breaking point.

you might think it's too late to learn from history.

I don't, I'm not that cynical.

 

[Leumas]

It's always so gratifying to see people justifying atrocities.

It is only an atrocity if it is done on the person who says it is an atrocity...

But... if he is doing the very same acts onto others, then it is a Retaliation... or Justified Collateral Damage... or it is their fault for using human shields... or... they brought it upon themselves for being such savages and inhuman animals.

When the Nazi killed European Jews... they were doing genocide and a holocaust...

When European Jews kill Palestinians it is "mowing the grass" in retaliation for the crimes of those savages... and in any case those inhuman animals deserve all the wrath of YHWH because they dared deny his Settler Colonial decree for his chosen Netanyahu and his ilk of Zionists.

 

[Leumas]

What about one? Why do you care what excuses serial killers might make?

Israel is one such atypical serial killer.

Do you think that somehow matters? No, it doesn't.

The all but countless Palestinians victims that Israel killed and the others in its dungeons would beg to vehemently differ.

A serial killer claiming his killings are war doesn't make them war.

Exactly... go tell that to Netanyahu one of the most hideous mass murdering serial killers ever in the history of such psychopaths.

 

[webfusion]

*snip*
...Exactly... go tell that to Netanyahu one of the most hideous mass murdering serial killer ever of the history of such psychopaths.

Yeah, sure, Benjamin Netanyahu (Benzion Mileikowsky) will rise above Genghis Khan and Ivan the Terrible. (Whose favorite execution methods included boiling alive, impalement, being roasted over an open fire or being torn limb from limb by horses.)

 

[Hercules56]

It is only an atrocity if it is done on the person who says it is an atrocity...

But... if he is doing the very same acts onto others, then it is a Retaliation... or Justified Collateral Damage... or it is their fault for using human shields... or... they brought it upon themselves for being such savages and inhuman animals.

When the Nazi killed European Jews... they were doing genocide and a holocaust...

When European Jews kill Palestinians it is "mowing the grass" in retaliation for the crimes of those savages... and in any case those inhuman animals deserve all the wrath of YHWH because they dared deny his Settler Colonial decree for his chosen Netanyahu and his ilk of Zionists.

There would be many less dead Palestinian Arabs if they abandoned violence and committed to nonviolent resistance. If they had done this years ago they were probably already have a state for themselves.

 

[Leumas]

...Palestinian Arabs...

yup...

 

[Hercules56]

yup...

Yup...what?

 

[Ziggurat]

Israel is one such atypical serial killer.

That's like saying people are whales because we're mammals that swim and eat fish.

Israel is a state. Calling a state, any state, a serial killer is just stupid. They aren't the same. And if the totality of your conception of morality is that all bad things are the same, you would be an idiot.

Don't be an idiot. You can say Israel does terrible things without having to resort to absurdity.

The all but countless Palestinians victims that Israel killed and the others in its dungeons would beg to vehemently differ.

Wow, you're really bad at this. The most charitable interpretation I can make of this is you simply lost track of what was being discussed, because if you didn't, then you're saying that Palestinians care if atypical serial killers plead in defense that they were engaged in acts of war.

No, they don't. Nobody gives a **** what serial killers plead in defense. People care what they actually did.

Exactly... go tell that to Netanyahu one of the most hideous mass murdering serial killers ever in the history of such psychopaths.

The historical ignorance on display is staggering in its scale.

You know what group kills by far the most Muslims and Arabs?

It's not the Jews. It's not the USA.

It's other Muslims and Arabs.

This is a ******* drop in the bucket compared to the bloodshed muslim-on-muslim violence has spilled. The Yemen civil war, which is still ongoing, has killed around 377,000 people. But it wasn't Jews who did it, so you don't care.

War is brutal. Innocent lives are lost and ruined. But war is what Hamas wanted. War is what Hamas chose.