General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[The Great Zaganza]

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/07/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza


According to the most recent information there are still rockets being launched toward Israel. I don't know how much armed resistance the soldiers on the ground are encountering. If they want a "pause" they could start by stopping firing rockets but I don't think it makes military sense to pause the offensive and allow defenders to regroup.

The IDF never made the cessation of missile attacks a reason to stop the occupation and elimination of Hamas, or even just of negotiation.
It is therefore extremely rational for Hamas to use whatever they have left while they can.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

And I quote, from the 1968 Charter of the Palestine Liberation Organization:

Just because the PLO says everyone living in Palestine before 1947 was an Arab, doesn't automatically make it true.
It is in the interests of the PLO, and the opponents of Israel in general, to create the fiction of a distinct and separate Arab nation, that was displaced by the creation of the state of Israel.
Records from the Ottoman Empire, and from the British Mandate, give the lie to this claim.
tl/dr: What Leumas said, minus the foaming at the mouth invective.

 

[webfusion]

Just so that I am clear... what would all those Zionist terrorists in Israel do if the Palestinians all declared their conversion to Judaism?

You're unclear and foggy, actually.
Judaism has a detailed and complex methodology for conversion.
You don't just 'declare' it, but rather, require a panel of religious Judges (Bet Din) to approve your intent and verify your Torah/halacha adoption. In Israel, it's a rigorous and long process, sometimes lasting more than a year, attending many classes and consultations with Rabbis, becoming an active participant in a Minyan, and of course, immersion into a ritual bath (mikva).

Nice try to invent a theoretical that isn't a real option.

Would they accept that and give them Aliyah rights just like say they gave the Africans or Indians?

Both groups were well-established practitioners of Judaism, with Rabbis; Minyan formation; Torah reading; circumcision; traditional observance; marriage rituals; etc.

You can't just snap your fingers and become a Jew like magic.

 

[Leumas]

...
tl/dr: What Leumas said, minus the foaming at the mouth invective.

So it is "foaming at the mouth invective" to point out the fact that the PLO are moronic terrorists?

It is in the interests of the PLO, and the opponents of Israel in general, to create the fiction of a distinct and separate Arab nation, that was displaced by the creation of the state of Israel.

The above statement is an arrant absurdity... it is in the interest of Zionism to create the lie that Palestinians are "arabs" as I have already explained...

By using that false epithet.
...
And then the Xenophobic supremacist Settler Colonialists use fallacies and propaganda such as "Land Without a people for a people without a land" and "Squatters" and then turn around and say "they are arabs and there are many arab states why don't they just go there to where they came from and leave us poor oppressed homeless Settler Colonialists with that little piece of land that does not belong to them... but was promised by the god 65% of us do not believe in to a guy 100% of sane people know was a myth".

and has already been demonstrated

The 'Arab World' consists of 22 countries in the Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

Israel is less than 22,000 sq.miles of land area. It is home to a robust mixture of people.
Including Ba'hai. Name another place on earth that the Ba'hai are comfortable in. (Iran?)

Also... Arab nationalism and its terrorists were fomented and armed and trained by the British and the French in order to have a fifth column fighting the Ottoman Empire before and during WWI... nothing to do with Israel.


The only correct statements in your post are these

Just because the PLO says everyone living in Palestine before 1947 was an Arab, doesn't automatically make it true.

It is in the interests of the PLO,

Because then they can go to the obscenely rich arabs and ask them for money which they can deposit in their accounts and get venally rich off of it... and part of it use to carry on with their heinous terrorism.


ETA: to demonstrate how incorrect your statements above are... and that it is rather in the interest of Zionism to disseminate the lie that the Palestinians are "arabs"... answer this question

Just so that I am clear... what would all those Zionist terrorists in Israel do if the Palestinians all declared their conversion to Judaism?

Would they accept that and give them Aliyah rights just like say they gave the Africans or Indians?

You know the answer is a resounding and irrefragable NO... and that "no" is facilitated in favor of Zionism by perpetuating the lie that they are arabs.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

So it is "foaming at the mouth invective" to point out the fact that the PLO are moronic terrorists?

Yes. The tone of the entirety of your posts is one of spittle-flecked apoplexy. You can make your claims in calmer language, you know. There's really no need for this.

The above statement is an arrant absurdity... it is in the interest of Zionism to create the lie that Palestinians are "arabs" as I have already explained...

You are both right and wrong, but as all you will do is endlessly repost your lengthy, overheated and largely irrelevant diatribes in response, I really do not see any point in trying to debate this with you. Life's too short.

 

[Leumas]

You're unclear and foggy, actually.

No I am not because I already knew this very well... I just wanted to see what would Zionists reply...

Judaism has a detailed and complex methodology for conversion.
You don't just 'declare' it, but rather, require a panel of religious Judges (Bet Din) to approve your intent and verify your Torah/halacha adoption. In Israel, it's a rigorous and long process, sometimes lasting more than a year, attending many classes and consultations with Rabbis, becoming an active participant in a Minyan, and of course, immersion into a ritual bath (mikva).

Nice try to invent a theoretical that isn't a real option.

THANKS!!! You have answered honestly... and thus it goes to prove the RACISM And XENOPHOBIA of Judaism.

You can't just snap your fingers and become a Jew like magic.

Why not? What is so special about it?

Why can't it be like Christianity where ANYONE ON EARTH can become a christian with a bit of water... or Islam where ANYONE ON EARTH can become one with reciting some claptrap.

Why is Judaism such a RACIST XENOPHOBIC religion? Who decided to make it that way?

It was not that way during the 140s BCE when the Hasmoneans went around FORCING judaism on anyone that came under their power in their newly minted kingdom... so why not now?

Both groups were well-established practitioners of Judaism, with Rabbis; Minyan formation; Torah reading; circumcision; traditional observance; marriage rituals; etc.

So a European or Indian or African or Chinese who reads the Torah and is circumcised has more rights to the land of Palestine than the autochthonous peoples who were born and bread there generation after another for MILLENNIA... because they are Christian or Muslim rather than Jewish?

There were followers of the religion of Judaism and Christianity in Palestine millennia before and after the "arabs" conquered it. So how do the European Rabbis know which of those Jewish and Christian PALESTINIANS did not convert to Islam by hook or by crook and become now Muslim Palestinians... or convert to Christianity also by the sword and became Christian Palestinians?

Just like Palestinians before them were converted by the sword of the Hasmoneans to become Jewish Palestinians... no?

Do you call the Mizrachim Arab Jews? And even if YOU do... are they arabs?

So... thanks for yet again proving that the lie that Palestinians are arabs only goes to serve the Zionists' deliberate exclusion of them.

ETA: Do you think that a Christians should be able to do Aliyah to Palestine and displace people from their homes and farms because this is the land of Jesus?

Why not... why can an Indian or African or German or Russian or Polish or French or American Jew do that?

ETAA: Do you think an Italian American should be able to go to Italy today and displace some Muslim Italian from his house in say Milan and claim it for himself because he has Italian ancestry?

If not... than why can an Indian or Russian or Ethiopians or or or do that because s/he worships the sky daddy of some mythical guy from Sumer 4200 years ago?

 

[Leumas]

Yes. The tone of the entirety of your posts is one of spittle-flecked apoplexy. You can make your claims in calmer language, you know. There's really no need for this.

You are both right and wrong, but as all you will do is endlessly repost your lengthy, overheated and largely irrelevant diatribes in response, I really do not see any point in trying to debate this with you. Life's too short.

So my "diatribe" against the PLO terrorists offends you... but your

...spittle-flecked apoplexy... and ... overheated and largely irrelevant diatribes...

against a member of this forum is fine and dandy?

You are both right and wrong

You are right that I am right... because REALITY and history and facts prove me so... and I have shown those facts and cited them.

But you are arrantly wrong that I am wrong because you have not an iota of anything to show that I am... nothing at all... just...

...spittle-flecked apoplexy... and ... overheated and largely irrelevant diatribes...

Directed at a member of the forum because I deride the moronic terrorists of the PLO.

 

[webfusion]

It appears that Leumas is engaged in a practice known as 'navel gazing' (omphaloskepsis)

I wish him well in that endeavor.

In the news, Hamas now says its fighters are advancing on Israeli troops and inflicting heavy damage to IDF. ("we're winning" is their mantra?)

I noticed a story coming out of Gaza City, as Israeli soldiers were able to form a Minyan (prayer group quorum) in an ancient Jewish synagogue there which had been captured in the successful advance of their lines.

Interesting social experiment
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379602
"Do you support these things...?"
(a fake petition to agree with allowing Hamas to take over all of Palestine/Israel)

 

[Leumas]

It appears that Leumas is engaged in a practice known as 'navel gazing' (omphaloskepsis)

Haha... nope... I am systematically demonstrating the arrantly abject moral and historical and legal and ethical and humanitarian BANKRUPTCY of Zionism and Judaism.

Thanks for helping me do that.

 

[Hercules56]

And that quote is meaningless codswallop written by idiots and terrorists.

You would prefer to take the poppycock written by raving hideous terrorists instead of REALITY and HISTORY and GEOGRAPHY and ... did I say REALITY already??

You are denying anthropology and sociology and linguistics and archaeology and history and economics and REALITY altogether and prefer to believe the perfidious lies of terroristic morons.

I am going to take the bait.

The Palestinians speak the Arabic language, eat Arabic foods, celebrate and participate in Arabic culture. If they are in fact not Arab....what are they????

I expect an intelligent response.

 

[webfusion]

Haha... nope... I am systematically demonstrating the arrantly abject moral and historical and legal and ethical and humanitarian BANKRUPTCY of Zionism and Judaism.

Thanks for helping me do that.

Yer welcome, so glad it's helping ya.

(your posts are sounding more and more like the HAMAS indicating "We're Winning")

And this from Ron Dermer --
"...hopefully the Palestinians eventually will be able to choose a leadership that is committed to peaceful coexistence with Israel and not one that is determined to destroy Israel and that also teaches their children to live at peace with Israel and doesn't demonize Jews and demonize Israel." - SkyNews interview yesterday

 

[Hercules56]

Haha... nope... I am systematically demonstrating the arrantly abject moral and historical and legal and ethical and humanitarian BANKRUPTCY of Zionism and Judaism.

Thanks for helping me do that.

Hamas clearly believes in targeting and killing Israeli civilians as part of their attempt to "liberate" Palestine. Does that mean Islam and Palestinian nationalism is ethically and morally bankrupt?

 

[Leumas]

Hamas clearly believes in targeting and killing Israeli civilians as part of their attempt to "liberate" Palestine. Does that mean Islam and Palestinian nationalism is ethically and morally bankrupt?

Yes... definitely.

Nationalism of all sorts is the product of 19th and 20th century INSANITY and was the cause of mayhem and destruction and atrocities around the world... one of which is Zionism.

The religions of the worship of an imaginary friend of a mythical peripatetic Sumerian pimp are the most HIDEOUS pyramid scheme ever wreaked upon humanity.

Hamas and the PLO are terrorists and so are the Zionists of the various groups.

 

[webfusion]

I am going to take the bait.

The Palestinians speak the Arabic language, eat Arabic foods, celebrate and participate in Arabic culture. If they are in fact not Arab....what are they????

I expect an intelligent response.

Previously, I suggested "Goobers" but they might run into copyright violation with that (See: Nestle)

I've seen some discussions that make the case they are "Canaanites"

I like this project --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lqEOR9UuBg
Asking people on the streets what they think.

 

[Leumas]

Yer welcome, so glad it's helping ya.

(your posts are sounding more and more like the HAMAS indicating "We're Winning")

And your above false statement sounds like theists claiming atheism is a religion.

And this from Ron Dermer --
"...hopefully the Palestinians eventually will be able to choose a leadership that is committed to peaceful coexistence with Israel and not one that is determined to destroy Israel and that also teaches their children to live at peace with Israel and doesn't demonize Jews and demonize Israel." - SkyNews interview yesterday

Yes... and the reciprocal would be desirable too... but that would be utter waste of time... because the Zionist terrorists in Israel are not ever going to allow that.... because it would be an existential threat to the racist xenophobic supremacist settler colonialist ethos and ideology of Zionism.

 

[webfusion]

Just an aside regarding "The Brutal Occupation" -- if you watched the video of the street interviews, it was created in Nablus (Shechem in Hebrew) and just look at the background and it becomes instantly obvious how oppressed, how brutalized, how difficult are the lives of Palestinians in the Westbank. /s

 

[Hercules56]

Previously, I suggested "Goobers" but they might run into copyright violation with that (See: Nestle)

I've seen some discussions that make the case they are "Canaanites"

I like this project --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lqEOR9UuBg
Asking people on the streets what they think.

LOL!!!

The Canaanites ceased to exist long before the Roman takeover of Judea.

If anyone is the descendants of the Canaanites, its the Jews.

The Palestinian Arabs? They are most likely a mixture of some of the locals who were around during the Islamic conquests, and all of the different Muslim peoples who migrated to their region over the last 1,000 years. Arabs, Persians, Egyptians, Berbers, Turks, Circassians, Tatars, Bosnians, etc etc.

But like many other people's of North Africa and the Middle East they adopted Arabic culture consider themselves to be Arabs and are part of the greater Arab nation.

You as a white man have no business telling them what they are and who they are. If they want to be known as Arabs and have evidence to support this then they are Arabs. Regardless of what your white privilege tells you.

 

[theprestige]

The IDF never made the cessation of missile attacks a reason to stop the occupation and elimination of Hamas, or even just of negotiation.
It is therefore extremely rational for Hamas to use whatever they have left while they can.

In what way is it rational for Hamas to keep using rockets while they can? These rockets do not strike at Israeli military forces. They cannot prevent Israeli military action. They do not deter Israeli military action. The only thing the Hamas rockets are good for is the senseless murder of civilians.

Senseless acts of violence are generally considered the polar opposite of "extremely rational". You're saying the goal of Hamas is not to achieve victory, is not to achieve peace. It's just to murder people in a fit of rage until they are exterminated. And you're saying you find Hamas's murderous rage and its symptoms to be extremely rational. Which it is, if you happen to believe that murdering Jews is a good thing.

 

[Leumas]

The Palestinians speak the Arabic language....

Indians had English as their official language and so did many countries in Africa... are they English?

Mexicans speak Spanish... are they Spanish?

Egyptians speak arabic too... are they arabs?

Do you even know anything about languages or linguistics? Or anthropology?

eat Arabic foods,

No they do not... Palestinian cuisine is more akin to Greek and Turkish and Italians cuisines....

Arabia and its Bedouins never heard of any of the herbs and cereals and cooking methods of the ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS of Palestine and Syria and Turkey and Greece until they were introduced to them when they raped and pillaged those places.

celebrate and participate in Arabic culture.

No they do not... other than perhaps the Muslim turpitude for the Muslim Palestinians.... which was imposed on them along with Islam.

Christian Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians have not an iota of anything to do with anything to do with Arabic "culture".

If they are in fact not Arab....

Yes... they are in fact not arabs.

....what are they????

Well... the answer is very simple... wait for it...

Palestinians

I expect an intelligent response.

I already gave you many before... and now some more... are you able to understand them?

 

[Leumas]

Just an aside regarding "The Brutal Occupation" -- if you watched the video ...

Of Obama admitting the fact of it...