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Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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Samson said:
Good post. Islam is a cult, so asymmetric warfare is the result. No one seems to see this simple truth. The kids are indoctrinated from.birth.
Here is a clip that I totally implore everyone on the thread to watch thru.
I wanna be wrong, and would love Planagale to show me I am wrong.

https://youtu.be/oSDOwkQuiQc?si=qX5CXJWg6T8naBwi
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You do know this is GB News sort of a UK Fox news.

But you got me. Like all Muslim kids I was indoctrinated. Exactly like all those Christian kids who are indoctrinated into the plan for a Crusade to free the Holy Land from the Infidels. (sarcasm)

This is just one guy who claims his parents indoctrinated him into western hate. But not very well since he changed his views. I guess by his focus on Palestine he might be from a Palestinian back ground.

Suggesting that all of us from the hugely ethnically and religiously diverse Islamic world are indoctrinated as children into some sort of anti-western cult is just gross Islamophobia.

Muslims are just like Jews or Christians. Some are more or less religious. Most just focus on their own lives and families go to Mosque/Temple/Church once a week and have some social interactions around the M/T/C, but principally want their children to grow up healthy, not get in trouble, do well at school, get jobs and get married and have their own children.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I think that example works both ways: you could say it failed because military force didn't work, or you could say it failed because the military force didn't act forcefully enough.
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And Military force worked well enough against Nazi Germany, and seems to have been effective in reducing ISIS fram a major threat to a nuisance.
It depends on the circumstance.
 
dudalb said:
US sending a "strong warning" to Iran about escalation.
This is not going in the right direction folks.
To quote Churchill on the events leadng up to the start of World War One, "The terrible ifs accumalate."
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Operation Praying Mantis 2: Stealth Bomber Boogaloo seems like a fine direction for this to be heading, in my opinion.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again "Violence never solves anything" is demonstrably not true.
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As Robert Heinlein said "
Violence never settles anything should be debated by the ghosts of Hitler,Napoleon and Stalin, with the city fathers of Carthage as referees.
Robert A. Heinlein
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".

You can ask the ghosts of the Confedeeracy in the US about that also.

It is an incredbily destructive and wasteful way of settling disputes, but I don't see war going away any time soon, given human nature.
And that is a major flaw with Hard Line Pacifism: it is based on a total misread of Human Nature.
 
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dudalb said:
....Nothing is more danerous then somebody who has a little knowledge of something but thinks he is an expert.
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Exactly... and therefore here is some first hand knowledge that Breaks the Silence on the pernicious warping of reality and may decrease the egregious lounge chair pontification by arrantly ignorant pontificators.


 
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This is the Israeli delegation at the UN Security Council... deliberately and willingly wearing what Nazis made Jews wear.

And that is while their government is performing genocide and collective punishment on victims of Apartheid, forcibly imprisoned in Bantustans they created out of people they ethnically cleansed and are calling them savage inhuman animals... (and here and here)

Reminds me of this book titled The Holocaust Industry.

And in the meantime, Netanyahu is quoting the Biblical genocide as a warrant for his.
 
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Orphia Nay said:
That's some pretty fancy extrapolation... dismiss the whole 7000+ figure because one old figure is a few different in a different order of magnitude.
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You really need to improve your reading comprehension skills.

I dismiss Hamas figures because Hamas lies. I dismiss the AP's defense of Hamas figures because the AP is incompetent. And again, the real problem with the AP isn't really the switch from 1385 to 1387. It's the claim that the UN did something that the UN explicitly denied doing. The fact that this switch spread well past the AP is just an example of how much of an echo chamber the press is, and how they keep recirculating bad information without ever checking it.
 
The Gaza Health Ministry is now saying over 8,000 Palesinians have died. But then, it's HAMAS all the way down in Palestine, right, despite the GHM having names and ID numbers.
 
Orphia Nay said:
The Gaza Health Ministry is now saying over 8,000 Palesinians have died. But then, it's HAMAS all the way down in Palestine, right, despite the GHM having names and ID numbers.
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The irony in people fighting against propaganda until it's about their sacred cow isn't lost on me.
 
Thermal said:
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My sole point here is to knock the halo off Israel when we talk about who has what rights to exist. The Israelis are pretty adamant about others not existing if Israel says so, or at least existing where Israel unilaterally decides. What Hamas is doing, unconscionable as it is, has a very short tie to what Israel is doing there in the first place.
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Dr. Gabor Maté explains that point perfectly in this video...


 
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Thermal said:
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I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the mid 20th century chain of events that got Israel a seat at the landowners table....
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The process started LONG before the 20th century... the machination and scheming came to fruition in 1948 but it has been cooking for centuries before that.

Christian Zionism
Christian Zionism can be defined as Christian support for the Zionist cause — the return of the Jewish people to its biblical homeland in Israel. It is a belief among some Christians that the return of Jews to Israel is in line with a biblical prophecy, and is necessary for Jesus to return to Earth as its king.
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Christian Zionism in the United Kingdom
Christian Zionism preceded Zionism amongst both secular and rabbinic Jews, and much of the initiative for this came from within the United Kingdom.....

....


17th century Congregationalists like John Owen, and Baptists like John Gill, and John Rippon, some 18th century Methodists and 19th century preachers like C H Spurgeon, Presbyterians like Samuel Rutherford, Horatius and Andrew Bonar, and Robert Murray M'Chyene, and many Anglicans including Bishop J C Ryle and Charles Simeon held similar views. Simeon wrote in 1820, 'the Jews at large, and the generality of Christians also, believe that the dispersed of Israel will one day be restored to their own land'

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality. C H Spurgeon in 1864, 32 years before Herzl's Der Judenstaat, .....

Early political momentum from the 1790s to encourage and facilitate a Jewish return to Israel was doctrinally post millennial in character, being based on Puritan teaching. Influential premillennial teachers like James Frere, James Haldane Stewart and Edward Irving in the 1820s and 30s spurred a shift in widely held opinion, with equal advocacy for the restoration. The close associates Edward Bickersteth and Lord Shaftesbury were prominent premillennial proponents of Restoration, though Bickersteth did not publicly come to this view of the millennium until 1835, and both held differently nuanced views but jointly considered a return to the land would precede the receipt of spiritual life.
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One solution is for everyone to accept there is no God, in any form, all religion is bunk.
 
Nessie said:
One solution is for everyone to accept there is no God, in any form, all religion is bunk.
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Another solution is for everyone to just be nice to each other all the time.

The problem with both solutions is that they don't work at scale for humans.
 
Orphia Nay said:
The Gaza Health Ministry is now saying over 8,000 Palesinians have died. But then, it's HAMAS all the way down in Palestine, right, despite the GHM having names and ID numbers.
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How would you know if a name and ID number on that list was fake? Who are you going to check it with? The government of Gaza, obviously.

And Hamas is that government. See the problem?

Is their tally correct? Maybe. But I have no way of knowing, you have no way of knowing, so I'm not going to rely on it for any arguments I make, nor should you. And the total death toll doesn't really tell you all that much either. We killed way more Japanese in WW2 than Americans were killed in Pearl Harbor. That didn't make waging war on Japan wrong.
 
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