webfusion
Philosopher
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Israel has not expressed seeking any territorial claims against Gaza in this war.
Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3
- Thread starter Mycroft
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Israel has not expressed seeking any territorial claims against Gaza in this war.
Thermal
August Member
When my parents started grade school, Israel didn't exist. Some memories are longer than others.
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Are you arguing for the return of the Ottoman Empire?
Thermal
August Member
Not sure if serious, but of course not. I am simply flabbergasted that people take Israel's statehood on that not-exactly-donated parcel of real estate as a given that should be accepted. Not to anyone else in the region, I wouldn't think.
Posters argue about whether this or that tactic was a clean fight as each fight comes up. I don't think the actual fighters down there have accepted Israel's very existence yet, nor can I see any reason for them to. Would you, if you were them?
Seriously. Would you have accepted the UN resolution that created the whole **** storm if you were a Palestinian?
yes. the land was under british control and ottoman control for the 400 years prior. it was split between 2 peoples that have at least equal claim by the UN.
should jews have accepted having no state? would that have been fair?
People who argue against this have no idea of history or current reality.
Thermal
August Member
Not sure I follow? There was no UN in those 400 years prior, and the damned thing was only in existence for flipping months before it decided Paestinians didn't really want that country anymore. Were they, you know, democratically asked for their thoughts on the matter?
"The Jews" are an ethicity/religion. No, they have no claim to land. They just really want one, and a very specific one, that others already were in. The reasoning being that they were God's Chosen People and this was their Holy Land. You know, that they were told millenia ago. By prophets. And God.
I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the mid 20th century chain of events that got Israel a seat at the landowners table. While I get that they are comparitively "the good guys", I can't see any other predictable reaction by the region's other inhabitants besides relentless pushback.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
And that is sort of beside the point;You have Seven Million Jews in Isreal who show no desire to go anywhere else. Might as well debate All the Poles who live in what was once the Eastern Part of Germany.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Or, worse. have a little knowledge of history.Nothing is more danerous then somebody who has a little knowledge of something but thinks he is an expert.
i'm saying the land did not belong to the Palestinians or Jews for 100's of years. At the time it belonged to the british who allowed the UN to partition it. 80% of it became Jordan, and the remaining 20% was split between Jews and the Arabs living there.
A lot of mid-east countries emerged from the breakup of the ottoman empire in the early 20th century. I don't recall anyone being democratically asked anything.
Jews have no claim to the land cause they're an "ethicity/religion"??
what are Arabs? and why the scare quotes around "The Jews"?
trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
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Odds are I would have been a follower of the Grand Mufti, which means I would have been campaigning for Hitler to expand his extermination program to the deserts of the ME. So no, I probably would not have accepted Israel's existence.
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
It's as serious a question as what it was a response to. How serious that is depends on you.
By the look of this argument, it relies on a number of rather problematic assumptions. One of the first of those is that "Palestinians" existed as an actual group, rather than simply being Arabs, many of whom were coming into the area at the same time that many Jews were coming into the area. Another, by the look of it, is that the Jews there just magically poofed into being and were not a real and significant power/population at the time of decision-making. There's more, but when the premises that you seem to be working from seem to lack recognition of even those basic points, it's hard to take this attempted line of argument to be anything other than an attempt to appeal to the current situation and emotion.
To poke at a somewhat more relevant question to the past, if you're a renter and the land owner sells the property to someone else, who then uses the land for other purposes, does that justify you seeking to murder the new owner and then just steal that land by force? The Arabs were rather vocal about their desire to do exactly that the moment that they felt that they could, after all, at last check. And, in fact, did immediately start a war to seek to do so the moment that they felt that they could. Should the Jews who had legally obtained property, often going out of their way to seek non-contentious land where they wouldn't displace the locals, have just let themselves be murdered and their hard work and very significant contributions plundered?
That's pretty much exactly the kind of thing that you're trying to make justified with that last "Would you have accepted the UN resolution that created the whole **** storm if you were a Palestinian?" There's plenty of ugh that can be pointed at on whichever side, of course, but the logic that you're pushing seems to have very little other than attempted spin in the way of historical roots, concern with principle, or much of anything else objective in favor of an attempt at superficial emotional appeal.
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dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Why should they. it is not like is is a desireable piece of real estate.
"Hamas’s leader in the Gaza Strip, Yahya Sinwar, says the group is ready for an “immediate” prisoner swap with Israel." - Al Jazeera liveblog an hour ago
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/live...sion-under-way-as-gaza-cut-off-from-the-world
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/live...sion-under-way-as-gaza-cut-off-from-the-world
Also from Al Jazeera liveblog:
At least 7,703 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli attacks since October 7. More than 1,400 people were killed in the Hamas attack on Israel.
At least 7,703 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli attacks since October 7. More than 1,400 people were killed in the Hamas attack on Israel.
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
It could easily be quite desirable, I think? The lack of desirability has everything to do with soft factors, unless I'm very mistaken, while the location, weather, and land are pretty nice. Well, the land was pretty nice, at least. Less so now, apparently.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Al Jazeera liveblog? Like it's reporting live from each Israeli attack? And you're passing this on without question? Who's the useful idiot here? Al Jazeera?
Take it or leave it, it's up to the reader.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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Where did Al Jazeera get that number from?
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