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Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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Good man. Every coin has two faces. I can find sympathy for both sides of this dispute.
 
ThatGuy11200 said:
Are you seriously trying to compel people on a skeptics forum to be willfully ignorant?
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Don't worry, there's no need for me to urge that upon some of the people here.
They've got it covered all by themselves.

The tally (like a football score) is a useless measure of anything.
Especially when it's offered as a meme (graphic) to garner sympathy for HAMAS.

"SURRENDER DOROTHY" should be skywritten (or printed in Arabic on a banner hauled by a small aircraft) so it's visible all across the Gaza coastline.

(Wizard of Oz film reference)
 
Jedi said:
not sure where you're getting this 99% Muslim number.

From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

1914
Muslim 76%
Jews 14%
Christ. 10%

and if we look at Jerusalem only:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem

Muslims
1905: 25%
1922: 23%
Jews
1905: 41%
1922: 54%

So in 1914 Jews made up 14% of the population of Palestine and Muslims made up 76%. twice as many Jews in Jerusalem than Muslims in 1922 and Jews were the majority in Jerusalem going back, it appears, to the early 1800's. there has always been a jewish presence in the area.



was there a massive import of Arabs at any time?



Is Judea in Bavaria or Austria?


no one 'stole' land. palestinians have rejected compensation.
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Fair enough, though if I look at Wikipedia, the percentage Muslims in 1920 is 78%. In 1948 that has dropped to 60%. So yeah, the targeted immigration of Europeans who had no presence in the area before did start to alter the makeup of the local population by quite a bit.

And wrt there being no Judea in Bavaria... I guess that depends on why a new nation needed to be carved out. IMO the holocaust was conducted in Europe by Germany and it's allies and thus they should be held responsible. It would have been a just action to take a productive and well defensible area from there and create a safe homeland for it's victims.
On the other hand, Israel was founded because of religious reasons. Our holy books says we own that land, and tough luck for those that live there now. I disagree with that.
Now my opinion is worthless there, but as it turned out the people living there were not convinced either (at least the majority of those living there) and in true European colonial fashion they were ignored over the voices of Europeans.

The division of the land was decided by Europeans. The vote on whether to proceed was rigged in favor of the Europeans and the compensation offered was better than what the Native Americans got, but not by much.

That colonial mindset has led to 70 years of war and still the myopic right refuses to acknowledge that the Palestinians are not some group of unreasonable primitives, but a forcefully displaced population that actually has a reasonable grudge.

And the refusal to acknowledge that and the policies followed since then have driven the Palestinians to embrace ever more extremists in the hope they will do something.

Again, I disagree with the actions of Hamas. I do not endorse the removal of Israel. But I also disagree with the actions of Israel. This is not a black and white conflict.

But I will never agree with some posters here, nor they with me. Our opinions will never set international policy anyway.
And due to the damage being done to the area in war and climate change the whole of Israel will probably become unsuitable for human habitation in the next 100 years or so, so I guess the problem will solve itself anyway.
 
BrettM said:
Good man. Every coin has two faces. I can find sympathy for both sides of this dispute.
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Trust me, the vast, vast majority of Israelis have an incredible amount of sympathy for the people of Gaza right now. The fact that we are compelled to engage in this course of action gives us no joy.

However, when I see Jewish students at Cornell University being advised on Sunday (today) to avoid the kosher dining hall at the university after threats were directed at the school’s Jewish students, I know that we're on the right path with our forays against Hamas &Co.

(According to JPost, the threats were made in the form of messages that were posted on the university’s discussion forum, many of which called for physical violence against the Jewish students.)

“if you see a Jewish ‘person’ on campus, follow them home and slit their throats. rats need to be elimination (sic) from Cornell,” read one message posted to the forum.
 
webfusion said:
Trust me, the vast, vast majority of Israelis have an incredible amount of sympathy for the people of Gaza right now. The fact that we are compelled to engage in this course of action gives us no joy.

However, when I see Jewish students at Cornell University being advised on Sunday (today) to avoid the kosher dining hall at the university after threats were directed at the school’s Jewish students, I know that we're on the right path with our forays against Hamas &Co.

(According to JPost, the threats were made in the form of messages that were posted on the university’s discussion forum, many of which called for physical violence against the Jewish students.)

“if you see a Jewish ‘person’ on campus, follow them home and slit their throats. rats need to be elimination (sic) from Cornell,” read one message posted to the forum.
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Good post. Islam is a cult, so asymmetric warfare is the result. No one seems to see this simple truth. The kids are indoctrinated from.birth.
Here is a clip that I totally implore everyone on the thread to watch thru.
I wanna be wrong, and would love Planagale to show me I am wrong.

https://youtu.be/oSDOwkQuiQc?si=qX5CXJWg6T8naBwi
 
Quick reply to L. Sisser -- "the percentage Muslims in 1920 is 78%"

Again, in 1920, the general areas of Historical Palestine included Egyptian Gaza, Golan Heights&Lebanon (to the Litani River, becoming part of the French Mandate for Palestine) and of course, the so-called WestBank lands.
All of these were Jew-free, and remained so, until 1967.
 
Ziggurat said:
I was curious about this, so I did some digging. From your source:



So... where's this 1,385 figure the UN came up with? I've been googling, and I can't find it in any UN source. I see multiple press references to it but they only attribute it to the UN without sourcing it. But I did come pretty darn close in this document from the UN:
Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict

I couldn't find a death toll of 1,385 anywhere, but I did find a reference to a death toll of 1,387, which is pretty darn close. So maybe the difference was just a typo, the difference is small enough that it doesn't really change anything, but if this is the source, it's rather telling that so many press references carry the same typo.

But let's look at the substance of that reference for some more details. It's on page 90 of that document.



Now here's the real kicker, on page 91:



The UN mission reported numbers provided to it by other organizations, but they EXPLICITLY deny making any claim themselves. Which makes the AP claim that "the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records" rather suspect. Was there some other United Nations investigation? I don't think so, I can't find any, and the AP certainly doesn't provide any way to check their claim. So their conclusion that Hamas numbers have historically been reliable is a bit suspect at this point.

But that's not the end of it either. The AP, and pretty much every other English language press outfit, claimed that Hamas reported 500 deaths. But that's quite possibly not even what Hamas claimed. Hamas may have only claimed 500 casualties/victims, which includes both dead and injured.

https://www.silentlunch.net/p/did-the-entire-media-industry-misquote

Press fact checking on casualty figures is simply laughable. They basically just copy off each other, and the fact that they're repeating each other makes them all think that they've confirmed what they're reporting, when it's just an echo chamber.
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That's some pretty fancy extrapolation... dismiss the whole 7000+ figure because one old figure is a few different in a different order of magnitude.

FWIW, the 2008 B'Tselem figure is 1391 here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War_(2008–2009)?wprov=sfti1#
 
Thermal said:
Which might be expected of, say, the Nazis, but maybe not the Allies?
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To revisit this side note, Roger Ramjets poked at the relationship of the Arabs and the Nazis in another thread. To poke at the most relevant part of that post -

The Nazis had a big hand in it,
History of Israel

Between 1929 and 1938, 250,000 Jews arrived in Palestine (Fifth Aliyah). In 1933, the Jewish Agency and the Nazis negotiated the Ha'avara Agreement (transfer agreement), under which 50,000 German Jews would be transferred to Palestine...

Jewish immigration and Nazi propaganda contributed to the large-scale 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, a largely nationalist uprising directed at ending British rule...

Between 1939 and 1945, the Nazis, aided by local forces, led systematic efforts to kill every person of Jewish extraction in Europe (The Holocaust), causing the deaths of approximately 6 million Jews... Those Jews who survived in central Europe, were displaced persons (refugees); an Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, established to examine the Palestine issue, surveyed their ambitions and found that over 95% wanted to migrate to Palestine.
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There's a bit of the actual Nazi's contribution to the matter. Said 1936-1939 Arab revolt, which they lost, weakened their position at the later negotiating table, just like their numerous subsequent attempts to use war and violence to seize everything.
 
It is eerie how much alike the rhetoric of "Hamas needs to go" is to "Saddam has to go" .
The logic is exactly the same: do this one thing, and then we can think about what comes after, if by a weird Fluke the countries don't magically become peace loving pro-western democracies
 
dudalb said:
Ever think of looking outside the Left Wing bubble?
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You described the IRA terrorist organisation as a "slightly misguided revolutionary group". You are now dodging your support for the use of terrorism to achieve an objective in Ireland, whilst you condemn such in Israel.

It is hypocritical, terrorist supporting people like you who drive the violence that kills many innocent people. It is because people like you are running Hamas and the Israeli government, that the chances of a peaceful, long term settlement, is presently impossible.

Thankfully those in charge in the IRA and the UK government thought otherwise, and successfully sought a peaceful settlement.
 
dudalb said:
If HAMAS was white national terroist group, would a lot of the posters here be so understanding> I doubt it.
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Nah, just take a look back at Waco; a bunch of us were happy to simultaneously opine that the cult was abusive, dangerous and stockpiling weapons, and also that storming their compound with a strategy that was significantly ******* and led to collapsing a burning building on a lot of kids, was bad.

Disclaimer not equating weird cult with group that went out and murdered lots of neighbors.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
It is eerie how much alike the rhetoric of "Hamas needs to go" is to "Saddam has to go" .
The logic is exactly the same: do this one thing, and then we can think about what comes after, if by a weird Fluke the countries don't magically become peace loving pro-western democracies
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Hate to say it, but that is what we did in World War 2. We did not have elabortate plans for post war Germany and Japan when we went to war with them.
And I note you seem really anxious for HAMAS to somehwo survive.
 
Nessie said:
You described the IRA terrorist organisation as a "slightly misguided revolutionary group". You are now dodging your support for the use of terrorism to achieve an objective in Ireland, whilst you condemn such in Israel.

It is hypocritical, terrorist supporting people like you who drive the violence that kills many innocent people. It is because people like you are running Hamas and the Israeli government, that the chances of a peaceful, long term settlement, is presently impossible.

Thankfully those in charge in the IRA and the UK government thought otherwise, and successfully sought a peaceful settlement.
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I never called the IRA that, I did say comaparing the iRA with HAMAS was a bad comparasion.
 
US sending a "strong warning" to Iran about escalation.
This is not going in the right direction folks.
To quote Churchill on the events leadng up to the start of World War One, "The terrible ifs accumalate."
 
dudalb said:
Hate to say it, but that is what we did in World War 2. We did not have elabortate plans for post war Germany and Japan when we went to war with them.
And I note you seem really anxious for HAMAS to somehwo survive.
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Clearly military force is the answer, it work so well with the Taliban.
 
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