Luton Airport Car Park Fire

[JayUtah]

She seems to have seized on the fact that diesel doesn't ignite quite as easily as gasoline, and inferred that it is much less energetic when it burns, which is simply not the case.

Kerosene and diesel are similar enough that some diesel car owners can use kerosene. But more importantly, we use kerosene as jet fuel and as the rocket fuel RP-1. LOX/RP-1 reactions are vastly energetic, as the concrete flame deflector and flame trench at Launch Complex 39 can attest.

 

[welshdean]

Kerosene and diesel are similar enough that some diesel car owners can use kerosene. But more importantly, we use kerosene as jet fuel and as the rocket fuel RP-1. LOX/RP-1 reactions are vastly energetic, as the concrete flame deflector and flame trench at Launch Complex 39 can attest.

Yes, but only in their lab!

 

[novaphile]

Yes, but only in their lab!

I've known a couple of Labs that could clear a room with their 'exhaust', deity help anyone who is next to one in a room with an ignition source...

 

[Vixen]

Not only that, but the fire rapidly spread to many more vehicles. I'm not sure of the ratio of diesel to gasoline vehicles in the UK (When I was in France years ago there were a lot more diesel cars than in the US, because of the relative cheapness of diesel at the time) but you can bet that a lot of those were gasoline powered. And once you get to a certain point in the conflagration, the higher ignition temperature of diesel isn't going to make a damned bit of difference. All those vehicles crowded together in a well ventilated space is going to lead to a massive fire.

I wonder if Vixen has been proceeding under the misapprehension that all the structural damage to the parking garage was caused by the one vehicle alone. The way she's been arguing, I'm not sure she understands that the initial vehicle fire was just the ignition point for the greater fire. She also doesn't seem to understand that while diesel may have a higher ignition temperature, it contains about 18% more energy by volume. She seems to have seized on the fact that diesel doesn't ignite quite as easily as gasoline, and inferred that it is much less energetic when it burns, which is simply not the case.

Do you have a citation for your ridiculous claims. Your ad hominem attack thinly disguised as pondering is pathetic.

 

[Steve]

Do you have a citation for your ridiculous claims. Your ad hominem attack thinly disguised as pondering is pathetic.

There are not enough 's on this planet.......

 

[P.J. Denyer]

There are not enough 's on this planet.......

Just as well. The conflagration would have wiped out mankind.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Do you have a citation for your ridiculous claims.

Please indicate which claims you believe to be ridiculous:

- The fire rapidly spread to other vehicles.

- There were surely a significant percentage of gasoline vehicles in the structure.

- Once temperatures exceeded the ignition point of diesel, it would make little difference whether individual vehicles had diesel or gasoline in their fuel tanks.

- The structural damage to the parking garage was not caused by a single vehicle burning.

- Diesel releases about 18% more heat energy than gasoline by volume.

I look forward to learning which of those statements is in error.

Your ad hominem attack thinly disguised as pondering is pathetic.

Wondering what misconceptions might be driving your erroneous arguments is not an ad hominem attack. Just because having your competence challenged makes you angry, it doesn't make the act an ad hominem attack.

Do you understand that the server damage to the structure was not caused by the burning of one vehicle?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Just as well. The conflagration would have wiped out mankind.

Only if they were Li-ion powered. That's why my ironometer is diesel powered, just like my laptop.

 

[JayUtah]

Only if they were Li-ion powered. That's why my ironometer is diesel powered, just like my laptop.

Mine is powered by a chihuahua on Adderall.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Mine is powered by a chihuahua on Adderall.

I thought that was heavily regulated by the Department of Energy.

 

[Vixen]

Please indicate which claims you believe to be ridiculous:

- The fire rapidly spread to other vehicles.

- There were surely a significant percentage of gasoline vehicles in the structure.

- Once temperatures exceeded the ignition point of diesel, it would make little difference whether individual vehicles had diesel or gasoline in their fuel tanks.

- The structural damage to the parking garage was not caused by a single vehicle burning.

- Diesel releases about 18% more heat energy than gasoline by volume.

I look forward to learning which of those statements is in error.


Wondering what misconceptions might be driving your erroneous arguments is not an ad hominem attack. Just because having your competence challenged makes you angry, it doesn't make the act an ad hominem attack.

Do you understand that the server damage to the structure was not caused by the burning of one vehicle?

Your ridiculous claims that I have 'misunderstood' the logistics of the fire.

 

[GlennB]

Do you have a citation for your ridiculous claims.

[imgw=500]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48340&stc=1&d=1698445714[/imgw]

 

[Foster Zygote]

Your ridiculous claims that I have 'misunderstood' the logistics of the fire.

I didn't make a claim, I speculated about your understanding of how the fire spread and lead to the destruction of the building. Surely someone six steps ahead of everyone else would know the difference between a claim and a question.

And you still haven't responded to that query. Do you understand that the building was destroyed by a fire involving many vehicles, not just the initial vehicle?

 

[Vixen]

I didn't make a claim, I speculated about your understanding of how the fire spread and lead to the destruction of the building. Surely someone six steps ahead of everyone else would know the difference between a claim and a question.

And you still haven't responded to that query. Do you understand that the building was destroyed by a fire involving many vehicles, not just the initial vehicle?

Your thinly disguised attempts to insult are noted. Please do better.

 

[GlennB]

Your thinly disguised attempts to insult are noted. Please do better.

Evasion MXCVIII noted

 

[Foster Zygote]

Your thinly disguised attempts to insult are noted. Please do better.

Saying you are wrong is not a personal attack. Please do better.

Why won't you answer my question?

 

[Mojo]

And you still haven't responded to that query. Do you understand that the building was destroyed by a fire involving many vehicles, not just the initial vehicle?

And that once the fire encountered flammable materials other than diesel it was no longer a "diesel fire"?

 

[GlennB]

And you still haven't responded to that query. Do you understand that the building was destroyed by a fire involving many vehicles, not just the initial vehicle?

Vixen - do you intend ever to respond to this simple question?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Vixen what is an ad hominem?

 

[catsmate]

Is it your opinion that a diesel fire could buckle a steel reinforced frame within a short period of time, as in a typical multi-level car park?

Involving hundreds of vehicles containing tens of thousands of litres of hydrocarbon fuel (say 80GJ worth) and perhaps 250 tonnes of combustible plastics (say 2TB)?
Yes plenty ofenergy there.