Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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Something that should be read, I think:

A Record of Pure, Predatory Sadism

This afternoon, at a military base north of Tel Aviv, the Israel Defense Forces held a grisly matinee screening of 43 minutes of raw footage from Hamas’s October 7 attack. Members of the press were invited, but cameras were not allowed.
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I have not sought out or watched any of these videos, since they would be profoundly disturbing to watch, but here are written descriptions of the atrocities committed which the terrorists themselves recorded. In light of this I don't think I can criticize any actions that Israel feels are necessary to take in response to this.
 
Jedi said:
and 80% were not. not sure what your point is here.



your suggestion is not feasible or realistic. welcome to Unicornia.



i doubt that highly and all this is is your belief. nonetheless, you think hamas won't try this again? and give me a break with your 'extra-judicial execution.'
this is war.



we don't know what the ratio is, and overstating civilian deaths play into hamas' strategy. and only hamas commanders need to be killed?

Israel will target hamas and not civilians. Israel will drop leaflets, roof knock, and telescope their intended targets (to Israel's detriment) to avoid taking civilian lives. name me another army that does this. all civilian deaths are the responsibly of hamas.

about 700k civilian deaths in the Iraqi war and about 70k civilian deaths in the Afghanistan war after 911. i don't recall hearing any of these argument then, nor do i recall any leaflets being dropped, roof knocking or advanced warning to civilians. doing so puts US soldiers and objectives at increased risk to save enemy civilians.
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I am not sure from the many reports from South Gaza of bombing that this is happening in the present war. People who have moved from the North to the South of Gaza have been killed. They have been killed with no warning.
 
Puppycow said:
Something that should be read, I think:

A Record of Pure, Predatory Sadism



I have not sought out or watched any of these videos, since they would be profoundly disturbing to watch, but here are written descriptions of the atrocities committed which the terrorists themselves recorded. In light of this I don't think I can criticize any actions that Israel feels are necessary to take in response to this.
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An absolutist position. I can understand that. Hamas have committed terrible crimes. It is human nature that people must be punished - anything necessary to achieve justice. The Gazan people must be punished for allowing Hamas to exist. If we kill enough Gazans, starve them, reduce them they will drive Hamas out. No cost too great to eradicate Hamas. I can empathise with this response. I am sure if Hamas killed my sister or mother or child I would feel the same.
 
Jedi said:
what would you consider to be a proportionate response to the massacre of 1400 civilians?
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An improvement in intelligence gathering and defences to prevent such from happening again. So, more armed guards for settlements and any events near the Gaza border.

An investigation to identify those specifically responsible. That should be on an individual level and in terms of organisation and its leadership. The aim being to arrest and hold those people to account, with an absolute minimal risk to non-combatants. Or, as has been done in the past, targetted killing of combatants, which could be weeks, months or even years later.

Negotiations to prevent an escalation of the violence.
 
steenkh said:
The bit about why Israeli voters voted for an extremist government was entirely my own opinion, though I believe it is supported by all the previous elections that also always tipped towards a hardline course, precisely when international pressure was about to make an impression on the Palestinians.
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This is just another, much bigger serving of unsupported assertion.
Citations needed again.
 
Ziggurat said:
What makes you say that?
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This thing called 'evidence'.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org...gainst-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

The majority of Gazans don't support Hamas' campaign of violence, and would rather have Fatah governing them.
(This seems to have changed following the attacks, which I find totally bizarre. Hamas' hate-fuelled recklessness has led to the deaths of thousands of Palestinian civilians, and endangered and displaced many, many more- and they welcome this! :jaw-dropp )
 
I gotta say, the Hamas propaganda machine is bloody clever.

Obviously, they're cutting legs off corpses post mortem so the body bags look like kids to make the world sick over Israel's bombardment of residential areas.

Cunning bastards.

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2...-homes-kill-dozens-at-a-time-in-southern-gaza

I see the gutless wimps at UNICEF are calling for a ceasefire. Predictably siding with the terrorists.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...-in-gaza-a-stain-on-our-collective-conscience

Bit of mud - get real!
 
Reading this thread is very depressing. I'll just try to summarize what I understand as the position of the people posting in favor of Israeli actions:

1. Israel's actions, whatever they are, are justified in response to HAMAS's attack.
2. Israel is not currently committing genocide, and doing so would be bad.
3. The children dying in Gaza are not comparable to the children killed by HAMAS.

Have I understood you right?

If so, what is the end result of the Israeli bombartment and subsequent invasion of Gaza? How many civilian casualties are too many? Is there anything the Israelis can do to the inhabitants of Gaza that would be too much for you to support?
 
uke2se said:
Reading this thread is very depressing. I'll just try to summarize what I understand as the position of the people posting in favor of Israeli actions:

1. Israel's actions, whatever they are, are justified in response to HAMAS's attack.
2. Israel is not currently committing genocide, and doing so would be bad.
3. The children dying in Gaza are not comparable to the children killed by HAMAS.

Have I understood you right?

If so, what is the end result of the Israeli bombartment and subsequent invasion of Gaza? How many civilian casualties are too many? Is there anything the Israelis can do to the inhabitants of Gaza that would be too much for you to support?
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1. Israel's current actions are necessary and appropriate in response to the 10/7 atrocities. Israeli legal eagels (JAG) are keeping an eye on every IAF sortie, every command decision, and investigations of the battlefield activities are being conducted daily. The IDF is creating a well-documented file in case there is an ICC claim of 'war crimes' at the Hague.

2. Genocide is a word that has a definition. It means killing masses with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Even though Israel is aiming to obliterate the ability of HAMAS to function as a military force (or have political rule over Gaza), the targeting and strategy of the IDF is specifically designed NOT to reduce the overall Palestinian population. Yeah, 6,546 might seem like a lot of dead, but in the 'grand scheme of things' the number is not as vast as it could be if the IDF wasn't taking precautionary measures to prevent masses killed. (and I don't even trust these reported fatalities that the HAMAS are putting out to the press, because somehow they manage to inflate them and also avoid mentioning how many are collateral to their guys being targeted and eliminated)

3. Media reports say 344 minors died in Gaza just today, as a result of IAF bombings.
To my way of looking at it, that's 100% the responsibility of HAMAS for lighting the match and bringing this war upon their people. Every death in this tragedy is just more blood on the hands of HAMAS.

By the way, Israeli includes Oron Shaul and Hadar Goldin among the 'hostages' that must be returned.
They are not forgotten.
 
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Obviously Israel is criticized much more. There ARE different standards. Israel wants to call itself a western democracy. Hamas is terrorist organization. Nothing Hamas does is "too bad" .. it's just expected. For Israel that's different.
It must moderate the response, and it claims it's doing so. But we can't verify how good it is at that, while the corpses are all too visible.
 
Yeah so we're back at "Having standards but not living up to them is somehow worse then being abjectly and openly evil because at least that doesn't make you a hypocrite" thing which... is a really bad moral framework in my opinion.

The idea that Hamas is "better" because it doesn't pretend to or aspire to be better just sit well with me.

I really do think people are creating a very dangerous moral precedent with this idea that the only way to not be judged is to never even try to have a moral standard so that way you can't fail at them.

Again I get it. I get the siren call of the "This person is laying out a perfect petard to be hoisted by" but not to this level.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yeah so we're back at "Having standards but not living up to them is somehow worse then being abjectly and openly evil because at least that doesn't make you a hypocrite" thing which... is a really bad moral framework in my opinion.

The idea that Hamas is "better" because it doesn't pretend to or aspire to be better just sit well with me.

I really do think people are creating a very dangerous moral precedent with this idea that the only way to not be judged is to never even try to have a moral standard so that way you can't fail at them.
Again I get it. I get the siren call of the "This person is laying out a perfect petard to be hoisted by" but not to this level.
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Or the other way not to be judged is to be the "weaker" of the participants, so everything you do is the fault of the "stronger"
 
webfusion said:
3. Media reports say 344 minors died in Gaza just today, as a result of IAF bombings.
To my way of looking at it, that's 100% the responsibility of HAMAS for lighting the match and bringing this war upon their people. Every death in this tragedy is just more blood on the hands of HAMAS.
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Don't believe media reports of Gaza casualties. Those numbers mostly originate with Hamas, and they are frequently lies. Remember the hospital that Israel supposedly bombed, killing 500 people, but then it turned out to be a parking lot hit by a stray Islamic Jihad missile?
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yeah so we're back at "Having standards but not living up to them is somehow worse then being abjectly and openly evil because at least that doesn't make you a hypocrite" thing which... is a really bad moral framework in my opinion.

The idea that Hamas is "better" because it doesn't pretend to or aspire to be better just sit well with me.

I really do think people are creating a very dangerous moral precedent with this idea that the only way to not be judged is to never even try to have a moral standard so that way you can't fail at them.

Again I get it. I get the siren call of the "This person is laying out a perfect petard to be hoisted by" but not to this level.
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I can't speak for anyone else in the thread, but I do not think HAMAS is better than Israel. Not by a long shot. HAMAS is a terrorist organization. Israel is an ostensibly democratic country. That means we should expect consideration for human lives from Israel. That is why they are being critizised when they not only cause as much death and destruction on civilians as HAMAS, but considerably more.

You might think it's unfair that we hold a democratic nation to different standards than a terrorist orgainizaion, but them's the breaks.
 
uke2se said:
I can't speak for anyone else in the thread, but I do not think HAMAS is better than Israel.
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"I don't think Hamas is better than Israel but I only spend argumentative time and effort on Israel and not Hamas" is a distinction without difference.

Again there a lot of people who put actual effort into criticizing Israel and then tack on a perfunctory "And Hamas is bad too I guess" and think that's the be fair and balanced and... I don't agree.

Anyone can just mouth the words "Oh I totally think both sides are bad" but when all of your actual effort and arguments that take time and argumentative energy and passion go in one direction, it falls flat.


//Total Hijack. Is it HAMAS and not Hamas? It's not an acronym is it? I see a lot of people capitalizing it. Is it a translation thing from Arabic?//
 
JoeMorgue said:
"I don't think Hamas is better than Israel but I only spend argumentative time and effort on Israel and not Hamas" is a distinction without difference.

Again there a lot of people who put actual effort into criticizing Israel and then tack on a perfunctory "And Hamas is bad too I guess" and think that's the be fair and balanced and... I don't agree.

Anyone can just mouth the words "Oh I totally think both sides are bad" but when all of your actual effort and arguments that take time and argumentative energy and passion go in one direction, it falls flat.
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All my time and effort and arguments go into what's actually happening now. What HAMAS did was an atrocity, a huge crime. That does not mean Israel's response to said atrocity isn't an atrocity in itself. In fact, it's even worse, if you count the people killed as actual human beings.

I will also criticize the state of affairs orchestrated by Israel that led to the HAMAS atrocities, because Israel should be blamed for that.

We are talking about innocent people dying right now.

JoeMorgue said:
//Total Hijack. Is it HAMAS and not Hamas? It's not an acronym is it? I see a lot of people capitalizing it. Is it a translation thing from Arabic?//
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Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah. It's not wrong to write it Hamas.
 
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