Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jedi said:
what would you consider to be a proportionate response to the massacre of 1400 civilians?
Click to expand...

Even by IDF figures these were not all civilians; IDF say 20% were active service military.

I would say arresting and bringing to justice those responsible.

I believe, but am not certain, that all those potentially directly responsible for the deaths have been killed. That seems more than proportionate; there is evidence for extra-judicial execution of those involved.

I do not believe that killing Palestinian civilians at a ratio of 50 children to every alleged Hamas commander is proportionate. How many children do you believe would be proportionate?
 
JoeMorgue said:
I think it's a stretch to compare a reserve unit of a military force with a terrorist cell.

Listen I know a LOT of people are really in love with the whole "The only difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is which side wins thing" and I think's that is way overly-simplistic at best.

There are good and bad ways to fight wars. There is a difference between a soldier and a killer even if they are doing the same surface level thing in the moment. There IS a difference between collateral damage, even collateral damage that happens because you're lazy, stupid, careless, etc, and terrorism. There IS a difference between bombing a hospital and bombing a hospital because the bad guys have set up a command post in it.
Click to expand...

Emotionally I agree with you. If it helps we can put in a different situation. The IRA killed off duty soldiers in Northern Ireland and England and argued that they were legitimate targets. They bombed civilian targets such as bars and shopping centres, they killed children. The US gave asylum to some of those accused of these activities. To what extent would the UK have been supported in assassinating Irish nationalists? Only when on active service, at home, bombing the family home, bombing the Bogside? I wonder where Biden would have stood on this?

I would feel happier if there was an argument better than our side good, their side bad. I am not sure if the meme works outside of the UK, but "Are we the baddies"?
 
Last edited:
theprestige said:
"We should do something that will make Israel so mad they stop holding back because of our human shields."
Click to expand...

I don't know if you are a parent, but as an adult you need to not respond to provocation. If you are a LEO you don't open fire because of provocation.

The law requires that innocent civilians are not vicariously murdered.
 
Planigale said:
But under international law you do have an obligation to minimise civilian casualties.
Click to expand...

Israel goes to considerable lengths to minimize civilian casualties.

Hamas goes to considerable lengths to maximize civilian casualties.

It's not a close call here.
 
Planigale said:
I don't know if you are a parent, but as an adult you need to not respond to provocation.
Click to expand...

Killing 1400 people isn't a provocation. It's an act of war. And not responding to an act of war isn't "adult", it's suicide.
 
Planigale said:
I am not sure if the meme works outside of the UK, but "Are we the baddies"?
Click to expand...

I'm familiar with that Michell & Webb skit. It's quite good.

But I don't think you've really taken it to heart, because under that standard, Hamas are very obviously the baddies. Like, it isn't even a question. They're doing a lot worse then marching under the banner of a rat's anus. They're filming themselves murdering children, because they're proud of murdering children. Even the literal Nazis tried to hide the **** they were doing, but Hamas livestreams it.
 
Planigale said:
I don't know if you are a parent, but as an adult you need to not respond to provocation. If you are a LEO you don't open fire because of provocation.
Click to expand...
"He's in the classroom right now, killing kids one at a time! Take the shot!"

"Negative. It's just a provocation. As a police sniper, I cannot open fire because of a provocation."

The law requires that innocent civilians are not vicariously murdered.
Click to expand...
Vicariously?
 
Ziggurat said:
Killing 1400 people isn't a provocation. It's an act of war. And not responding to an act of war isn't "adult", it's suicide.
Click to expand...

Planigale's position is despicably one-sided. Hamas murders 1400 people because of a provocation, no problem. Israel responds, huge problem.

Planigale, your position is objectively pro-terrorism and anti-Semitic.
 
theprestige said:
Planigale's position is despicably one-sided. Hamas murders 1400 people because of a provocation, no problem. Israel responds, huge problem.

Planigale, your position is objectively pro-terrorism and anti-Semitic.
Click to expand...

I don't get where she is coming from, giving her belief, from a year ago, that the women killed ion 1/6 trying to get past a police barridace was murdered.
 
Jedi said:
more germans died than allies as well
Click to expand...

Planigale said:
Even by IDF figures these were not all civilians; IDF say 20% were active service military.
Click to expand...

and 80% were not. not sure what your point is here.

I would say arresting and bringing to justice those responsible.
Click to expand...

your suggestion is not feasible or realistic. welcome to Unicornia.

I believe, but am not certain, that all those potentially directly responsible for the deaths have been killed. That seems more than proportionate; there is evidence for extra-judicial execution of those involved.
Click to expand...

i doubt that highly and all this is is your belief. nonetheless, you think hamas won't try this again? and give me a break with your 'extra-judicial execution.'
this is war.

I do not believe that killing Palestinian civilians at a ratio of 50 children to every alleged Hamas commander is proportionate. How many children do you believe would be proportionate?
Click to expand...

we don't know what the ratio is, and overstating civilian deaths play into hamas' strategy. and only hamas commanders need to be killed?

Israel will target hamas and not civilians. Israel will drop leaflets, roof knock, and telescope their intended targets (to Israel's detriment) to avoid taking civilian lives. name me another army that does this. all civilian deaths are the responsibly of hamas.

about 700k civilian deaths in the Iraqi war and about 70k civilian deaths in the Afghanistan war after 911. i don't recall hearing any of these argument then, nor do i recall any leaflets being dropped, roof knocking or advanced warning to civilians. doing so puts US soldiers and objectives at increased risk to save enemy civilians.
 
Planigale said:
I don't know if you are a parent, but as an adult you need to not respond to provocation. If you are a LEO you don't open fire because of provocation.

The law requires that innocent civilians are not vicariously murdered.
Click to expand...

provocation?!?! are you being serious?????
 
theprestige said:
Planigale's position is despicably one-sided. Hamas murders 1400 people because of a provocation, no problem. Israel responds, huge problem.

Planigale, your position is objectively pro-terrorism and anti-Semitic.
Click to expand...

I agree

dudalb said:
I don't get where she is coming from, giving her belief, from a year ago, that the women killed ion 1/6 trying to get past a police barridace was murdered.
Click to expand...

given this, her position is even less coherent
 
dudalb said:
Hiroshams and Nagasaki sure as hell ended the war fast , and spared the world the huge causlaties of an Invasion of Japan.
Click to expand...

The question was whether they were "Justice".

I consider it extremely problematic when the propose of war is punishment.
 
May i restate my position which i have stated many times since people are misrepresenting me.

1) The actions of Hamas were criminal

2) I have never said that the actions were justified.

It is important to remember the policy here is to address the argument and not make ad hominem attacks.

I do argue that violence is not going to bring peace. Israel has said they are at war, therefore they are bound by the laws of war. One crime does not justify a criminal response.
 
dudalb said:
I don't get where she is coming from, giving her belief, from a year ago, that the women killed ion 1/6 trying to get past a police barridace was murdered.
Click to expand...

I think killing people is wrong. I think wars are bad things.

Hamas killing people is wrong. The actions of Hamas were criminal.
 
theprestige said:
Planigale's position is despicably one-sided. Hamas murders 1400 people because of a provocation, no problem. Israel responds, huge problem.

Planigale, your position is objectively pro-terrorism and anti-Semitic.
Click to expand...

I have repeatedly stated that the actions of Hamas were criminal. I have never said the actions of Hamas were justified. I think violence will not bring peace. I am opposed to violence whether by Palestinians or israelis.

International law requires a proportionate response. I think it is legitimate to ask whether Israel's current response is proportionate and legal. That is not arguing there should be no response. That is not arguing that the crimes of Hamas are justified by Jewish terrorism.

There are 5,000 Palestinians in Gaza dependant on dialysis they will all die within days if the hospitals have no power to run dialysis machines.

Laying siege to a civilian population and blockading food and water is an explicit crime under international law.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom