Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Jedi]

Thanks for the quoting advice Aridas, Let's see it if works...

Random example on a quick search - Israel arrests settlers after rampage on Palestinian village leaves 1 dead
Settlers stormed a Palestinian village near Ramallah late Friday, shooting and killing 19-year-old Qusai Matan, according to Palestinian health officials.

Didn't take long to find and lots more. Now, someone please post an example of PA or Hamas officials arresting someone that killed a jews. just one. hint: they don't get arrested, they get paid.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Are we talking about individuals or organisations? If individuals are not made into extremists then an extremist organisation dies.

Both, as I thought I'd made clear in my post. Did you read the links?

Most Palestinians just want to live a quiet life. But sufficient have been driven to violence that the Horrors of a mass civilian massacre happened.

Nope. Hamas has ALWAYS been extremist, and they have ensured that Palestinian children have been brainwashed from the beginning to hate Jews. Have you seen the Hamas webcam footage released by Israel? They talk about killing Jews, and are happy to have killed Jews.
Also, I do not equate Hamas with majority public opinion in Gaza, largely because the majority do not support Hamas. Living in the exact same place, dealing with the exact same problems, has not led the majority of Gazans to become extremist.

I think you fail to see how for their whole life the young people of Gaza have been imprisoned, deprived, all a deliberate policy of the Israeli government. Under continual threat of death from the air. What is surprising is how many are for peace.

Then you would think wrongly. I suggest actually reading my posts. (I'm having the same trouble on FB ATM: if I criticise Hamas, I must be an unconditional supporter of Israel, and totally ignorant of the situation on the ground. Neither of these are true, and I have never intimated this.)

I think the actions of Hamas are wrong, I think they were criminal. But if you want to reduce crime you deal with the causes of crime. People who are starving will steal. People who are being killed will fight back. Far more Gazans have been killed by Israel in absolute number let alone relatively than vice versa.

Remember how many Gazans were shot by the IDF in peaceful demonstrations, when peaceful actions don't work then you can expect violence. When Gazans were peacefully demonstrating and were shot then the world could have acted.

No, I don't remember. Could you remind me?

 

[Jedi]

Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
more germans died than allies as well
Dresden was Justice?
And Hiroshima and Nagasaki, too?

the point of my post was to point out that just because one side suffers more deaths doesn't mean they are automatically the righteous side.

but now that you bring it up, what are you just including dresden and japan? why not the Aleppo massacre of 1850 where over 5000 christians were killed by muslims? heck, why not include the Massacre of Thessaloniki in 390 where 7000 thessalonikans were murder by the romans in retaliation for the arrest of one of their chariot drivers, for that matter? were those 'justice'?

you're trying to use todays 'enlightened' understanding of fairness and cruelty at a time that didn't evolve to this point. the geneva convention was in 1949 (4 years after WWII ended) and was a response to nazi and japanese atrocities rather than allied ones (victors make the rules).

if we were fighting the nazis or japanese now, we wouldn't firebomb dresden or drop nukes on japan. it's a different world now. we understand things differently. and i would wager a lot of money that if you were alive in britan in 1945 you wouldn't be complaining about dresden. and the savagery gets worse the further you go back, although what happened in israel 2 weeks ago would fit right in with the middle ages. have you read about the hamas atrocity videos israel showed to 100's of jounalists yesterday?

as you wrote before, let's stick with whats happening now.

 

[Jedi]

I think the actions of Hamas are wrong, I think they were criminal. But if you want to reduce crime you deal with the causes of crime. People who are starving will steal. People who are being killed will fight back. Far more Gazans have been killed by Israel in absolute number let alone relatively than vice versa.

why did the palestinians start a war to annihilate the nascent jewish state in '48? in fact, what was their excuse for killing jews prior to '67 when there was no 'occupation/oppression'?

so you 'think' what hamas did is 'wrong'? you 'think' it was criminal? wow those are some strong words

 

[Darat]

...snip...

as you wrote before, let's stick with whats happening now.

why did the palestinians start a war to annihilate the nascent jewish state in '48? in fact, what was their excuse for killing jews prior to '67 when there was no 'occupation/oppression'?

...snip...

Which is it?

 

[Jedi]

Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
...snip...

as you wrote before, let's stick with whats happening now.

This was a response to Planigale's comment which i quoted

Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
why did the palestinians start a war to annihilate the nascent jewish state in '48? in fact, what was their excuse for killing jews prior to '67 when there was no 'occupation/oppression'?

...snip...

This was a response to Cosmic Yak's comment which i also quoted

I (try to) only talk about past events when responding to comments that refer to them.

and it's been while since i posted so i need to get better at quoting

 

[Cosmic Yak]

This was a response to Cosmic Yak's comment which i also quoted

Just to clarify: that's not my quote. That's a quote from planigale. I was posting in a hurry, and didn't have time to preview the post: I should have wrapped quote marks around that portion. I didn't, so that's my bad.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[steenkh]

he had a power-sharing agreement with his former coalition partner, and broke that deal.
No one expected anyone but the far-right orthodox to form a coalition with him on Top.
Least of all Netanyahu.

Exactly. All of this was common knowledge, and not controversial. It should be no surprise for anybody with a memory going back just a few years.

 

[Ziggurat]

QED

Thanks for that.

(It doesn't matter whether it's 10 or 100, dead children are dead children and only utter filth would use the tactic of smaller numbers being less immoral)

The truth should always matter, but apparently it doesn't matter to you if you can slander Israel. And it wasn't just the numbers. You also lied about the intent.

And if killing children is what upsets you, if that's your primary moral metric, then the only sensible choice is to support Israel against Hamas. Israel's military acts to protect its children, and doesn't try to kill Palestinian children. Sometimes they do, because Hamas hides behind its own children, and targets Israeli children. You are basically inverting your own claimed standard, and rewarding Hamas for using children as shields. You are in no position to lecture anyone about morality.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I again reiterate my point that boiled down to the pure stock the only real question here is about the "validity" (for lack of a better, more precise term) of Israel the country as a base concept.

1. Do the "Jewish people" have a right to a country just for them?
2. Does Israel "need" (again for lack of a better, more precise term) to go THERE?
3. If your answer to 1 or 2 is "No" then where do the people who live in Israel know go?

 

[Ziggurat]

I again reiterate my point that boiled down to the pure stock the only real question here is about the "validity" (for lack of a better, more precise term) of Israel the country as a base concept.

I don't even think we need to go that far. I think the real question is even more basic than that, and much more practical.

Israel DOES exist. It has the means and the will to defend itself. What would it take to make Israel not exist? The answer is it would take a genocidal war. If you don't want Israel to exist, is that price worth paying? And who is going to pay it?

So long as Israel exists, it will try to protect its existence against perceived threats.

 

[Thermal]

I again reiterate my point that boiled down to the pure stock the only real question here is about the "validity" (for lack of a better, more precise term) of Israel the country as a base concept.

1. Do the "Jewish people" have a right to a country just for them?

They certainly have a strong demand, if not an actual right, which has historical validity and wide support. Wouldn't call that a right, but it's not far from it in practical terms.

2. Does Israel "need" (again for lack of a better, more precise term) to go THERE?

Historically, yeah. I wouldn't be a fan of displacing Taiwanese to Antartica and telling them they should be happy where we put them. Israel has a cultural and historical claim to roots specifically there.

 

[Darat]

This was a response to Planigale's comment which i quoted



This was a response to Cosmic Yak's comment which i also quoted

I (try to) only talk about past events when responding to comments that refer to them.

and it's been while since i posted so i need to get better at quoting

Understood, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Darat]

I again reiterate my point that boiled down to the pure stock the only real question here is about the "validity" (for lack of a better, more precise term) of Israel the country as a base concept.

1. Do the "Jewish people" have a right to a country just for them?

No. But then no one does. All our countries are ad hoc conglomerates with various origins and most of us are there simply because we were born there.

2. Does Israel "need" (again for lack of a better, more precise term) to go THERE?

No - see answer to 1)

3. If your answer to 1 or 2 is "No" then where do the people who live in Israel know go?

Where they are now.

Israel's existence where it is today is a fact, it has the means to define itself as a country where it is, and it does so. In the end that is all that it takes for a country to be legitimate.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay then what are we talking about? If the country is valid it can't exist right next door to a country that has "Israel must be wiped from the Earth" knitted on the throw pillows.

If Israel gets to exist then Palestine (and maybe the rest of the Middle East) doesn't and vice versa.

If Israel existence is "valid" then the fact that every Muslim country in the same area wants it destroyed isn't some minor middling side detail we can back burner.

 

[Darat]

Okay then what are we talking about? If the country is valid it can't exist right next door to a country that has "Israel must be wiped from the Earth" knitted on the throw pillows.

Why not?

If Israel gets to exist then Palestine (and maybe the rest of the Middle East) doesn't and vice versa.

Something approximating a Palestine could exist.

If Israel existence is "valid" then the fact that every Muslim country in the same area wants it destroyed isn't some minor middling side detail we can back burner.

Most of the countries have long gotten over their upset at Israel existing. At worse Israel is still used as the boogeymen to distract attention away from the crap state their countries are in.

 

[steenkh]

You seem to have missed the point. I was asking for a citation for the claim that Israeli voters were 'scared peace would break out'.

The bit about why Israeli voters voted for an extremist government was entirely my own opinion, though I believe it is supported by all the previous elections that also always tipped towards a hardline course, precisely when international pressure was about to make an impression on the Palestinians. This is analogous to how the rockets were flying towards Israel whenever Israeli politicians expressed willingness to compromise.

As I have written here before, extremists of both sides have cooperated to torpedo all peace initiatives, and I really believe that this is the reason why Israeli voters consistently give hardliners superiority in the Knesset, even when they know they support a corrupt prime minister. It is important to note that the opposition politicians were not intending to reduce spending on the army, or reduce security, but they would support reducing settlements in the West Bank, which is a prerequisite for obtaining peace.

 

[Jedi]

Just to clarify: that's not my quote. That's a quote from planigale. I was posting in a hurry, and didn't have time to preview the post: I should have wrapped quote marks around that portion. I didn't, so that's my bad.
Sorry for the confusion.

no worries, at least is isn't just me!

 

[Ziggurat]

Also, I do not equate Hamas with majority public opinion in Gaza, largely because the majority do not support Hamas.

What makes you say that?

I think the actions of Hamas are wrong, I think they were criminal. But if you want to reduce crime you deal with the causes of crime. People who are starving will steal. People who are being killed will fight back.

First off, very little crime is caused by people starving. Most crime is a result of a breakdown in social order, which is different than deprivation.

Far more Gazans have been killed by Israel in absolute number let alone relatively than vice versa.

You say that like it means Israel is in the wrong somehow. But it doesn't. It just means Israel is stronger. But strength is not a sin, weakness is not a virtue, and in war, you have no obligation to limit your enemy's casualties to less than your own. Hamas certainly wants to kill more Jews, they're only limited by their capacity, not by choice.

Gazans keep getting killed because Hamas keeps attacking Israel and then hiding behind those civilians. If Hamas wasn't attacking Israel, the number of Gazan casualties would drop through the floor. Hamas doesn't care about casualties in Gaza. They aren't attacking Israel because of that. You're making excuses for them.

Lastly, two short video clips in one link. I don't know the words being said, but the sentiment is pretty obvious. And it encapsulates quite a lot about this conflict, as well as why my sympathy for Gaza is running dry.

https://twitter.com/biasbit/status/1716192072275779921

 

[The Great Zaganza]

If people suffer and you could do something to help without having to suffer yourself, and you don't, I think you are morally culpable.
Especially if you work to make it hard for others to help, too.