Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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The Atheist said:
https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...unt-shocking-toll-of-child-deaths-in-gaza-war
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You claimed Israel wasn't letting children grow up. That implies not only a deliberate policy of killing children, but one that was so widespread as to materially affect the demographics of the population.

And that claim was an obvious lie. You've got an anecdote about a few children who tragically died, alongside Hamas claims (ie, propaganda) repeated uncritically, and ZERO indication that any child's deaths were actually an intended outcome.

You are engaging in a blood libel.
 
Jedi said:
The land allocated to the the 'Jewish' state under 181 was far smaller than to the Palestinian residents as compared with now.

and why is that? also, if Israel had been offered what the Palestinians were offered they would have accepted it and the Palestinians would still have rejected it. it isn't about the size of land it's ANY land for a Jewish state.


Some how land has been transferred from that allocated to the indigenous Palestinians to the 'Jewish' state.

now you gonna tell us that Jews aren't indigenous to Judea? all against overwhelming historical and archeological evidence.

The idea of co-equal Jewish and Palestinian states has been lost. The Palestinian state seems to have become a subject state of the Jewish state.

Israel does not want anything to do with ruling over the Palestinians. They exited gaza in 2005 completely. Israel is only in the w bank for security reasons and when the Palestinians stop their terror attacks there will be a pull out of the w. bank as well.
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Many of the Palestinians would have had ancestors that were Jewish that became Christian, some then became Muslim.

My daughter is Jewish. I am well aware of what being Jewish involves. My partner served with the IDF. I do not want my daughter doing national service with the iDF like her mother did. Because her mother has not got over it. I would like it not to be necessary for my daughter to serve in the iDF. (Which as a British citizen she could decide not to do.) But i also respect that she may choose to do so, like her mother did.

If you think that there are not strands within the Israeli politics that do not believe in greater Judea and the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank you are ignorant. There is a continual expansion of Jewish settlements into the West Bank.

israel did not exit Gaza completely. They maintained an air and sea exclusion zone. They limited supplies of water and electricity. They maintained an exclusion zone that prevented access to a quarter of Gaza arable land. They reserved the right to shoot unarmed Palestinians, to bomb unarmed Palestinians.

This is not something that began on October 6 this year, this is something that began when Palestinians were driven from their land into refugee camps in 1948.

Having said this we need to deal with things as they are now not the past.
 
webfusion said:
My goodness, I'm shocked that it's required to point out your misstatements of historical facts.

The Arab State in 1947 already EXCLUDED the French portion of Palestine (in the area of Syrian Golan and S. Lebanon) and EXCLUDED the entire eastern portion of the historical land of Palestine, all the way to the Iraqi border. (That had been ceded to the Hashemites in the 1920's, and the Kingdom of Jordan was formed).

As for the indigenous Arabs, that's false, because we know from contemporaneous British records that a multitude of Arab immigration (unrecorded) was flowing into the land, as the expanding Jewish Zionist efforts required such migrant labor. These new arrivals became Palestinians De-Luxe and when the UNRWA stepped into the picture during 1949, they all registered as 'refugees' and were placed on the dole. A dole that continues to this day.

As for the Palestinians being less than equal? I dunno, it's a challenging subject (See: Apartheid claims)
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What is the mistatement of historical facts?
 
lobosrul5 said:
Everything you say is true... I'm just pointing out the illogicality of blaming Israel for "stealing land" before Israel even existed. Its pretty damned nonsensical. And before they even officially became a nation the Arab factions were already waging war.
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And it is sort of meaningless. You have Seven Million Jews in Israel and they have no desire to move elsewhere, no matter how they got there.
 
Ziggurat said:
You claimed Israel wasn't letting children grow up. That implies not only a deliberate policy of killing children, but one that was so widespread as to materially affect the demographics of the population.

And that claim was an obvious lie. You've got an anecdote about a few children who tragically died, alongside Hamas claims (ie, propaganda) repeated uncritically, and ZERO indication that any child's deaths were actually an intended outcome.

You are engaging in a blood libel.
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It is best not to feed trolls.
 
Many of the Palestinians would have had ancestors that were Jewish that became Christian, some then became Muslim.

and therefore? your argument is making the point that jews are indigenous.
best we can say is that both have equal claims to being indigenous.

My daughter is Jewish. I am well aware of what being Jewish involves. My partner served with the IDF. I do not want my daughter doing national service with the iDF like her mother did. Because her mother has not got over it. I would like it not to be necessary for my daughter to serve in the iDF. (Which as a British citizen she could decide not to do.) But i also respect that she may choose to do so, like her mother did.

i understand completely. after living through the holocaust my parents didn't want to lose any children so they moved us to the US.

If you think that there are not strands within the Israeli politics that do not believe in greater Judea and the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank you are ignorant. There is a continual expansion of Jewish settlements into the West Bank.

there are extremists in Israel? quelle surprise. what country doesn't have them? like I said in another post, the difference is whether the laws are extremist, you know like the ones in the PA. Even the current govt arrests settlers (or anyone else) that commits crimes against Palestinians or anyone for that matter. And don't forget there is an Arab party in the Knesset that calls for an end to Zionism as well. Show me parallels amongst the Palestinians. and if you think that even the current govt is as extreme as the PA (and Hamas!) then your not living in reality. Israel is a democracy so even this govt is most likely to not be around long, especially after the current situation.


israel did not exit Gaza completely. They maintained an air and sea exclusion zone. They limited supplies of water and electricity. They maintained an exclusion zone that prevented access to a quarter of Gaza arable land. They reserved the right to shoot unarmed Palestinians, to bomb unarmed Palestinians.

blockade is a response to rockets, not the cause of them. if the gazans weren't trying to commit acts of terror against Israel, there would be none of what you mentioned. Israel isn't gonna allow random rocket fire so they need to maintain security, cause if the Palestinians ever got the chance they would... uh, oh wait...

show me where Israel purposefully shoots and bombs unarmed Palestinians. I could literally show you a plethora of Palestinians doing it to Israel going years back. blood libel.

This is not something that began on October 6 this year, this is something that began when Palestinians were driven from their land into refugee camps in 1948.

Please educate us at to why they were 'driven off their land' in '48. you don't get to start wars of annihilation and then cry when you lose.

Having said this we need to deal with things as they are now not the past.

something we agree with :)
 
There are some beautiful examples of Israel's greatest triumph in this thread.

The way otherwise sane people see any criticism of Israel or support for Palestine as antisemitic and support for terrorists.

And The Holocaust!!11!

Probably only another 100 dead kids while I've been typing this.

Ho hum.
 
The Atheist said:
There are some beautiful examples of Israel's greatest triumph in this thread.

The way otherwise sane people see any criticism of Israel or support for Palestine as antisemitic and support for terrorists.

And The Holocaust!!11!

Probably only another 100 dead kids while I've been typing this.

Ho hum.
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You're just making up numbers. Even taking Hamas at their word (and why would you do that?) your estimate is absurdly inflated. You aren't making any criticism of Israel, you're just lying.
 
Ziggurat said:
You're just making up numbers. Even taking Hamas at their word (and why would you do that?) your estimate is absurdly inflated. You aren't making any criticism of Israel, you're just lying.
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QED

Thanks for that.

(It doesn't matter whether it's 10 or 100, dead children are dead children and only utter filth would use the tactic of smaller numbers being less immoral)
 
The Atheist said:
There are some beautiful examples of Israel's greatest triumph in this thread.

The way otherwise sane people see any criticism of Israel or support for Palestine as antisemitic and support for terrorists.

And The Holocaust!!11!

Probably only another 100 dead kids while I've been typing this.

Ho hum.
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Wonder if you would say that about Isreali kids.
 
Planigale said:
What is the mistatement of historical facts?
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Like most people do, you've neglected to mention the areas of Historical Palestine that the Arabs did get, and the Jewish people were prohibited from living there (or in some cases, expelled, ethnically cleansed, see: Hebron)

Also, you fudged the details of who hundreds of thousands of these Arabs are, by ignoring that many came from all over the MidEast in the post-WW1 period, as migrants.
An Arab from Syria who shows up in Haifa to work in the port, cannot be claimed as indigenous.
Any more than a Jew from France who came to Haifa can be called indigenous.

Israel will continue to exist alongside the Arabs, and some modus vivendi will be established.
 
jedi states: " I would like it not to be necessary for my daughter to serve in the IDF. (Which as a British citizen she could decide not to do.)"

Is she a dual-national? If she holds Israeli Teudat Zehut, she will be sent a draft notice when her age group is due to be inducted. Her being a British citizen has nothing to do with it. (the law of return is an automatic granting of citizenship, and with that goes the responsibility of joining the IDF, so participating or fighting for the Israeli Armed Forces does not involve swearing any oath of allegiance to a nation other than UK, so her British status will not be jeopardized as a result of her becoming an IDF conscript).
 
webfusion said:
jedi states: " I would like it not to be necessary for my daughter to serve in the IDF. (Which as a British citizen she could decide not to do.)"

Is she a dual-national? If she holds Israeli Teudat Zehut, she will be sent a draft notice when her age group is due to be inducted. Her being a British citizen has nothing to do with it. (the law of return is an automatic granting of citizenship, and with that goes the responsibility of joining the IDF, so participating or fighting for the Israeli Armed Forces does not involve swearing any oath of allegiance to a nation other than UK, so her British status will not be jeopardized as a result of her becoming an IDF conscript).
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Clarification-- What you quoted was Planigale not me. I need to do a better job of highlighting my responses :)
 
Jedi said:
Even the current govt arrests settlers (or anyone else) that commits crimes against Palestinians or anyone for that matter.
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Random example on a quick search - Israel arrests settlers after rampage on Palestinian village leaves 1 dead
Settlers stormed a Palestinian village near Ramallah late Friday, shooting and killing 19-year-old Qusai Matan, according to Palestinian health officials.

Jedi said:
Clarification-- What you quoted was Planigale not me. I need to do a better job of highlighting my responses :)
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Standard practice is more commonly to mark what you're quoting with quote tags. You can hit the quote button on a post to have such automatically added. If you want to split up your response, then just copy paste the quote start and end tags on each part of what you're quoting. That, or just type out (QUOTE) and (/QUOTE) with [] instead of () if you don't feel like copy pasting, with the note that that will not give a little link to the post in question or mark who's being quoted in that section.
 
webfusion said:
jedi states: " I would like it not to be necessary for my daughter to serve in the IDF. (Which as a British citizen she could decide not to do.)"

Is she a dual-national? If she holds Israeli Teudat Zehut, she will be sent a draft notice when her age group is due to be inducted. Her being a British citizen has nothing to do with it. (the law of return is an automatic granting of citizenship, and with that goes the responsibility of joining the IDF, so participating or fighting for the Israeli Armed Forces does not involve swearing any oath of allegiance to a nation other than UK, so her British status will not be jeopardized as a result of her becoming an IDF conscript).
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My daughter. Although eligible for Israeli citizenship as her mother is a dual national she has only a British passport.

The question won't arise for over a decade, and we want any decision to be as free as possible. So we'll need to see what happens then.
 
webfusion said:
Like most people do, you've neglected to mention the areas of Historical Palestine that the Arabs did get, and the Jewish people were prohibited from living there (or in some cases, expelled, ethnically cleansed, see: Hebron)

Also, you fudged the details of who hundreds of thousands of these Arabs are, by ignoring that many came from all over the MidEast in the post-WW1 period, as migrants.
An Arab from Syria who shows up in Haifa to work in the port, cannot be claimed as indigenous.
Any more than a Jew from France who came to Haifa can be called indigenous.

Israel will continue to exist alongside the Arabs, and some modus vivendi will be established.
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Absolutely agree.
 
dudalb said:
Wonder if you would say that about Isreali kids.
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Absolutely.

In this fight, there are two evil sides with a load of innocents caught in the crossfire.

Exactly as usual.

Let's do a count at the end and see which side killed more kids, eh?
 
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