Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Cosmic Yak]

Cosmic Yak, meet dudalb.

*Note to self: Don't mention the (civil) war!*

 

[Planigale]

Thanks for proving my point about HAMAS apologists.
The people who did the things that HAMAS did cannot be allowed to be in a postion of any power.
I suppose you would have wanted some Nazis to stay in power in Germany in 1945.
It is called Regime Change, and Isreal will not stop until it happens.

I'm pretty sure ex-members of the Nazi party did stay in power post 1945.

https://www.businessinsider.com/for...ost-world-war-ii-government-2016-10?r=US&IR=T

https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/survival-and-legacy/postwar-trials-and-denazification/

 

[Planigale]

What do you guys think terrorists* ARE?

Existing by blurring the lines between the civilian population and "the bad guys" is what they do, it's how they work.

There's a reason Hamas and Al Qaida and ISIS never put on matching uniforms, form divisions and brigades, and meet their enemy in open traditional combat.

"We can win the battle, alls we gots to do is separate the terrorist from the population first" is a pretty functionally denying what terrorism is. If that's the standard then we're functionally declaring Terrorism to be a valid and winning strategy.

The fact that the line between combatant and non-combatant is so blurry in this conflict is 100% the fault of one side.

When you build your command centers in "non-combatant" buildings (as Hamas is notorious for) you don't get to cry crocodile tears when there's collateral damage.

*In 100% transparency you could quibble that "insurgency" or "unconventional warfare" or similar terms are a better description then "terrorists" for the exact dynamic we're talking because you could see "terrorism" as a goal or motivation instead a "level" of warfare. I think that's semantics, but I'll grant that the distinction might be seen as more meaningful for other people so I'm acknowledging it here.

I think you will find that there are armed non-uniformed Israelis in the West bank killing unarmed civilians. Are you prepared to call them terrorists?

Would you be prepared to call a state that allows terrorists to kill people unimpeded a terrorist state?

Are you prepared to be consistent with your arguments?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

Are you prepared to accept that Israel refuses to recognise the right of Palestinians to an independent nation state (a parallel to the refusal of Hamas to recognise Israel)? That both sides will need to come to peace negotiations without the refusal to recognise the right of the other to exist.

To be clear this in no way is an argument that the actions of Hamas are not criminal and those crimes would include terrorism.

 

[Planigale]

One more thing for the "it matters that they called for genocide" people here.

There are people in the Israeli government RIGHT NOW who have called for the killing of all Palestinians, and their support comes from Rabbis who say that on a regular basis.

By the logic of expressed wish of genocide, the current government is as guilty has Hamas.
Which is why I try to steer clear of this line of arguement.

just to support this comment there have been Rabbi's who have argued that it is acceptable for Israelis to kill Palestinian babies and children.

https://slashnews.co.uk/news/2009/11/09/5908/Kill-Enemy-Children-Jewish-Rabbis-Edict

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20140228-kill-enemy-children-jewish-edict/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23319577

 

[Planigale]

Oh please. I've answered it a dozen times.

Again there are literally dozens of Muslim, Arabic Speaking countries that could assimilate the 2 million Palestinians and not even notice it.

But, and I keep asking why, Israel and Israel alone has the sole and complete responsibility of "compromising" and "finding space" for these people.

Again the narrative we keep getting told is the "right one" is "Israel has some inherent metaphysical duty to make a "Palestine" within its borders, literally nobody else does."

Again if you buy the whole "No that 25 mile long strip of sand is our sacred ancestorial homeland" story this all makes sense to you. I don't buy for a second, so it doesn't.

If they had put Israel 50 miles in the other direction or on the Sinai or on a floating artificial island in the Persian Gulf the Palestinians would be going "No right there! That's totally our homeland! That's always where we wanted to live! No really!"

UN resolution 181 that created the state of Israel also created the state of palestine for those Palestinian arabs (muslim and christian) the resident within the boundary of the Palestine mandate.

Look it up.

You are literally calling for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. I also note that you would just destroy the long christian culture in Palestine? Effectively genocide of Palestinian christians.

 

[Planigale]

One idea, put the Old City of Jerusalem under some kind of internatonal sontrol, find some nation to adminster it who does not have dog in the fight
Japan has been suggested.....

UN resolution 181.

 

[Planigale]

No, if you try to justify or excuse HAMAS you are a terrorist lover. And a few hee are doing that undre the guise of "Explaining " about HAMAS.

There is a difference between understanding how and why things happen so that you can try and prevent them happening again and approving of them. Even being empathic with criminals does not mean you believe the crime is right and the punishment wrong. But it may mean you can try and prevent crime. Rehabilitation is more effective at preventing crime than punishment (in the long term).

 

[pipelineaudio]

Can someone give me an example of a country where there is not "occupation" and name a single homeowner who isn't a "settler"

 

[webfusion]

Can someone give me an example of a country where there is not "occupation" and name a single homeowner who isn't a "settler"

I own a book titled "The Settlers" by Meyer Levin (Simon & Schuster 1972 SBN 671-21154-4 Library of Congress 74-179591) It's a fictional novel, set in Eretz Yisroel at the turn of the 20th century.
From the first pioneers, through WW1, and the blighted relationships between the neighboring Jews and Arabs (in which the wars of the present were foreordained in the blood feuds and hatreds of those earlier generations).

 

[Hercules56]

I see that support for the Palestinains seems to have merged with SUpport for HAMAS in the protests.
At least in the US, this is going to backfire bigtime.

I totally accept sympathizing with the plight of the Palestinians. Their anger is justified their misery is real.

However no person who claims to care about humanity or justice or freedom can justify or excuse targeting innocent civilians especially women and children.

The two concepts are completely mutually exclusive.

If you do understand and justify and excuse attacks against innocent civilians women and children then your so called support for humanity is a lie.

 

[Aridas]

UN resolution 181 that created the state of Israel also created the state of palestine for those Palestinian arabs (muslim and christian) the resident within the boundary of the Palestine mandate.

UN resolution 181.

For what it's worth -

United Nations Resolution 181, resolution passed by the United Nations (UN) General Assembly in 1947 that called for the partition of Palestine into Arab and Jewish states, with the city of Jerusalem as a corpus separatum (Latin: “separate entity”) to be governed by a special international regime. The resolution—which was considered by the Jewish community in Palestine to be a legal basis for the establishment of Israel, and which was rejected by the Arab community—was succeeded almost immediately by violence.

The Arab choice to reject that and the Arab choice to immediately launch a war to prevent/eliminate the Jewish state have complicated matters quite a bit, in practice. The right of the Arabs to have a state of their own is internationally accepted, but the specifics have been left to Israel-Palestine negotiations because of Arab intransigence. The long-lasting Arab refusal to accept the Jewish State has greatly affected the ongoing politics and attitudes and gradually left the Arabs in a more and more disadvantageous position overall.

 

[Planigale]

Israel doubles the number of palestinians in detention over the last week.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...oners-in-israel-doubles-to-10000-in-two-weeks

This include over 200 children under administrative detention. This means detained without trial. These are used as hostages to put pressure on families to co-operate with Israeli authorities. i am sure that some will argue that is reasonable to detain children without trial.

Most Palestinians are detained under military authority and subject to military courts, this is in contravention to international law that says that civilians detained by military authorities should be subject to civilian courts and not military courts.

Some might argue the 5,000 recently detained Palestinians have been taken as hostages to swop for those taken by Hamas.

To be clear I think all hostage taking and detention without trial is wrong no matter who does it.

 

[Planigale]

Double post deleted

 

[Hercules56]

Israel doubles the number of palestinians in detention over the last week.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...oners-in-israel-doubles-to-10000-in-two-weeks

This include over 200 children under administrative detention. This means detained without trial. These are used as hostages to put pressure on families to co-operate with Israeli authorities. i am sure that some will argue that is reasonable to detain children without trial.

Most Palestinians are detained under military authority and subject to military courts, this is in contravention to international law that says that civilians detained by military authorities should be subject to civilian courts and not military courts.

Some might argue the 5,000 recently detained Palestinians have been taken as hostages to swop for those taken by Hamas.

To be clear I think all hostage taking and detention without trial is wrong no matter who does it.

Putting in administrative detention a 17 year old who threw stones at Israeli troops, where he has 3 meals a day and access to a lawyer and medical care, is very different than being a Hamas hostage in he bowels of Gaza City. I'm sure you can see the difference.

 

[dudalb]

I totally accept sympathizing with the plight of the Palestinians. Their anger is justified their misery is real.

However no person who claims to care about humanity or justice or freedom can justify or excuse targeting innocent civilians especially women and children.

The two concepts are completely mutually exclusive.

If you do understand and justify and excuse attacks against innocent civilians women and children then your so called support for humanity is a lie.

Look, look you are never going to hunt down every HAMAS member. But the ladership who planned the OCt. 7th attacks must be gotten rid of. Reduce it to a
nuisnecen level.
And If HAMAS, as it now exist takes over the West Bank then what we see happenng now will be nothing compared t what will happen.

 

[Planigale]

Putting in administrative detention a 17 year old who threw stones at Israeli troops, where he has 3 meals a day and access to a lawyer and medical care, is very different than being a Hamas hostage in he bowels of Gaza City. I'm sure you can see the difference.

it includes children as young as 12. Detained without limit.

https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention

Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones.

https://www.savethechildren.net/new...eveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian

60% of children experienced solitary confinement with the length of time varying from one 1 day to as long as 48 days.
Children were denied access to basic services, 70% said they suffered from hunger and 68% said they didn’t receive any healthcare.
58% of children were denied visits or communication with their family while detained.

Not sure independent opinion supports your view of three meals a day and access to medical care.

I don't think anyone in Gaza, hostage or not is getting three meals a day and access to medical care due to the Israeli blockade on supplies of water, food, medical supplies and fuel.

 

[dudalb]

If disagreeing with Progessive Dogma has become doubleplusungood crime think here, I am so out of here.

 

[dudalb]

And this is not good, a sign the violence might be spilling over into the US
:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/detroit-synagogue-president-samantha-woll-found-dead-outside-her-home/ar-AA1iCzaA

Too soon to tell,but this has all the markings of a Hate Crime. Along with the Muslim kid being killed, I got a sick feeling these might just be the beginning.

 

[Planigale]

Look, look you are never going to hunt down every HAMAS member. But the ladership who planned the OCt. 7th attacks must be gotten rid of. Reduce it to a
nuisnecen level.
And If HAMAS, as it now exist takes over the West Bank then what we see happenng now will be nothing compared t what will happen.

From what I can see the current Israeli actions (both official and unofficial) are weakening the authority of the PA and strengthening support for groups like Hamas on the West bank.

 

[dudalb]

From what I can see the current Israeli actions (both official and unofficial) are weakening the authority of the PA and strengthening support for groups like Hamas on the West bank.

ANd your alternative to Israel just bending over and taking it in the butt?