Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[uke2se]

Oh please. I've answered it a dozen times.

Again there are literally dozens of Muslim, Arabic Speaking countries that could assimilate the 2 million Palestinians and not even notice it.

But, and I keep asking why, Israel and Israel alone has the sole and complete responsibility of "compromising" and "finding space" for these people.

Again the narrative we keep getting told is the "right one" is "Israel has some inherent metaphysical duty to make a "Palestine" within its borders, literally nobody else does."

Again if you buy the whole "No that 25 mile long strip of sand is our sacred ancestorial homeland" story this all makes sense to you. I don't buy for a second, so it doesn't.

If they had put Israel 50 miles in the other direction or on the Sinai or on a floating artificial island in the Persian Gulf the Palestinians would be going "No right there! That's totally our homeland! That's always where we wanted to live! No really!"

Do you think it's Israel's neighbour's problem because they happen to share a religion with the people Israel has driven from their homes? I disagree.

Also, you appear to believe that Israel's jewish population has an inherent metaphysical right to their sacred homeland, but not the Palestinians.

 

[webfusion]

Keep in mind that this war is named "al-Aqsa Flood" by the HAMAS, due to the importance of the Temple Mount within their entire ideology. That gold-domed shrine sitting in the center of the Mount is there because it covers/protects/honors a rock outcropping, considered by three major monotheistic religions as being the actual Foundation Stone (alter) from the biblical account of Abraham and Isaac.

All attempts to solve the entire conflict revolve around how to handle the Temple Mount, and who gets to 'own' it.

Arafat had basically everything he wanted at Camp David with Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton bending over backwards to establish a PalestineState. However, when the discussion turned to al-Aqsa, things turned sour and Arafat walked away from the talks.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Also, you appear to believe that Israel's jewish population has an inherent metaphysical right to their sacred homeland, but not the Palestinians.

I have said at length that Israel has no "right" to the area. My solution is, has always been, and barring major changes in the situation, a "Nobody Gets It" No-State solution.

Again I'm sorry that the fact that I slightly default as a matter of practicality to the side that wouldn't murder me, you, and everyone in this thread the second they had the chance and doesn't have "We are defined by a never ending Holy War until we wipe the other side out" in their Constitution confuses you.

At a certain point the fact that Israel is simply less of a threat to Western Secular Democracies is allowed on table in SOME context.

And spare me another "Okay but Israel's actions make the Middle East hate us more!" routine. The Middle East is not waiting on an excuse to hate Westerners, Israel, America, Secularism, or pasty white atheists on the internet.

 

[Aridas]

is the sentiment here that we shouldn't eradicate Hamas if the didn't plan on the killing of all Jews and just kill every jew they can?

I don't get the level of agitation here.

Actions speak louder than words, and should have more severe consequences.
I don't see what genocidal rhetoric adds to mass murder, severity-wise.

It looks a bit like the focus you have is notably narrower than what those who disagree with you have here.

Pointing at one particular aspect of the issue at hand that is sufficient to justify some immediate goal does not invalidate or otherwise make irrelevant other aspects, especially when they've had long-lasting influence in making that one particular aspect that you want to focus upon into what it is. The "agitation" in play likely has more to do with how it looks exactly like you're trying to effectively give a free pass for the instigation and roots of the issue in favor of only focusing on some specific symptoms. Keeping the genocidal rhetoric in the picture isn't about increasing severity, but rather keeping things in relevant context. Without relevant context, in general, it's difficult to evaluate things meaningfully.

There is, of course, a notable amount that can be said about the Israeli side on that issue and Israeli hands aren't even remotely clean. It would be dramatically more surprising if they were clean, though, under the circumstances. Also, attempts to equate the two run into a simple problem. On Hamas' side, the destruction of Israel is still baked into their existence. On Israel's side, there's no equivalent versus the Palestinians.

Yes, the power balance has greatly favored Israel for the entire existence of Hamas and that has led to distinctly disproportionate damage done, in total. The plight of the Palestinians is pretty bad and worthy of concern... but the main reasons why they're in that situation are still self-inflicted. They could have had so much by now, had they been willing to go the co-existence and diplomacy route from the start or during the many chances they've had to do so since then. Instead, their leaders have chosen violence and existential threat to Israel rhetoric over and over and over, weakening their position at the negotiating table every time they've failed to accomplish such, not that their pride seems to ever be willing to admit such. That very much does have consequences that are both entirely reasonable and very unpleasant.

None of this excuses Israel when they commit war crimes, allow people who spout genocidal rhetoric to hold power, or otherwise act badly. It does provide context, though.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you think it's Israel's neighbour's problem because they happen to share a religion with the people Israel has driven from their homes? I disagree.

That would be a bad reason.

But they had a direct hand in creating the problem to begin with. They weren't passive bystanders. So yeah, I think that puts a moral burden on them to help solve it.

Also, you appear to believe that Israel's jewish population has an inherent metaphysical right to their sacred homeland, but not the Palestinians.

Nobody has a metaphysical right to sacred homelands. But Israel exists now, and has the will and the means to defend itself. The only way to make Israel go away is genocide. That's not an acceptable solution. THAT is why they get to stay.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

On Israel's side, there's no equivalent versus the Palestinians.

Sure there is. It's just couched in language about keeping Israel for the Jews. Otherwise they could have granted Palestinians Israeli citizenship and been done with it by now. Israel's far-right factions could never accept that, because the elimination of Palestinians on Israeli soil (to forestall any well acktuallies about the existence of Palestine as a political entity) is why they have the power they do.

Actually, that's something I wonder about. Political feasibility aside, what fraction of Palestinian civilians would be perfectly happy integrating into Israeli society? No second-class citizen crap or anything, just straight-up peacefully joining the community and contributing as equals. What fraction of Israeli civilians would be tolerant of that? They wouldn't need to roll out the red carpet, just refrain from outright hostility and discrimination. In short, how few are the people on both sides actually driving this continuing conflict?

 

[JoeMorgue]

In short, how few are the people on both sides actually driving this continuing conflict?

Honest answer? 10-20% actual, for lack of a better term (and obviously this is not an exact science) people who are actually driving it any real sense of the term, with 30-40% people who are some degree of "I care but not enough for it be be self sustaining and without, again for a lack of better term, reactionaries to lead me on probably wouldn't care THAT much."

And yes I think that's (approximately) equal on both sides.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Honest answer? 10-20% actual, for lack of a better term (and obviously this is not an exact science) people who are actually driving it any real sense of the term, with 30-40% people who are some degree of "I care but not enough for it be be self sustaining and without, again for a lack of better term, reactionaries to lead me on probably wouldn't care THAT much."

And yes I think that's (approximately) equal on both sides.

and probably most of the people living in the area that was attacked belong to the other 80%

 

[crescent]

But, and I keep asking why, Israel and Israel alone has the sole and complete responsibility of "compromising" and "finding space" for these people.

Again the narrative we keep getting told is the "right one" is "Israel has some inherent metaphysical duty to make a "Palestine" within its borders, literally nobody else does."

You'll not get a straight answer that you find acceptable because you have made up a complete strawman and are spamming the thread trying to defend it.

Israel does not need to "find space" for anyone. The space already exists and has been there for decades: West Bank and Gaza.

Israel does not need to find space "within its borders" because West Bank and Gaza are not within Israel's borders. Even Israel mostly recognizes that, having not annexed Gaza and only part of West Bank.

Really, that's all. West Bank, Gaza. Get the damn settlements out of West Bank, excepting maybe the big suburbs of Jerusalem. Resettle less than 100,000 Jewish extremists and the whole thing de-escalates dramatically.

Fix West Bank first because it already has a government that has been willing to compromise. That willingness to compromise has resulted in the continued expansion of settlements, the continued murder of Palestinians by extremist settlers - 50 in the last week.

So stop punishing the Palestinian Authority for its willingness to accept the Oslo Accords. Make West Bank more contiguous by removing settlements and the hundreds of roadblocks and checkpoints needed to subsidize their security. Make West Bank the model of how Israel can actually allow Palestine to exist - NOT IN ISRAEL!!!

Then use that model as a proposal to the people in Gaza. Not Hamas! Hamas is a terrorist organization, we all get that! Propose to PEOPLE, not the terrorist organization that rules them. Give them a viable alternative that does not result in continued murder and extirpation by settlers as is currently still seen daily in West Bank.

Make West Bank work, export the model to Gaza.

Repeat after me: West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.

The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!
The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!
The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!
The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!
The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!

Recognize these basic realities and I'll take you more seriously.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again "Israel shouldn't exist" is Hamas policy. This is a fact and it is not up for debate.

"Oh but we only want the West Banks and Gaza" is basically just you sprouting off their propaganda for them.

If Hamas gets the West Bank and Gaza they WILL demand more "concessions" from Israel because they don't want Israel to exist. That is a fact and it is not up for debate.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I'll post this here and in the Biden thread:

Josh Paul, Director of Congressional and Public Affairs at the State Department, working there for 11 years, has resigned over the Administration's decision to send weapons to Israel.
His Statement is pretty much in line with my thoughts on the subject.

I think everyone should read what an expert on the situation has to say.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/josh...esignation-activity-7120512510645952512-APhR/

 

[crescent]

Again "Israel shouldn't exist" is Hamas policy. This is a fact and it is not up for debate.

"Oh but we only want the West Banks and Gaza" is basically just you sprouting off their propaganda for them.

If Hamas gets the West Bank and Gaza they WILL demand more "concessions" from Israel because they don't want Israel to exist. That is a fact and it is not up for debate.

So? The whole point is to delegitimize Hamas. Make the PA successful because IT IS NOT HAMAS!!! Give Palestine an alternative THAT IS NOT HAMAS!!!!

**** Hamas. Get rid of them by giving Palestine a better option.

Honestly, you seem to really strongly equate Palestine with Hamas. That's a huge false equivalency. I give proposals for giving the people of Gaza a way to get rid of Hamas and you seem to read it as a defense of Hamas.

 

[JoeMorgue]

What do you guys think terrorists* ARE?

Existing by blurring the lines between the civilian population and "the bad guys" is what they do, it's how they work.

There's a reason Hamas and Al Qaida and ISIS never put on matching uniforms, form divisions and brigades, and meet their enemy in open traditional combat.

"We can win the battle, alls we gots to do is separate the terrorist from the population first" is a pretty functionally denying what terrorism is. If that's the standard then we're functionally declaring Terrorism to be a valid and winning strategy.

The fact that the line between combatant and non-combatant is so blurry in this conflict is 100% the fault of one side.

When you build your command centers in "non-combatant" buildings (as Hamas is notorious for) you don't get to cry crocodile tears when there's collateral damage.

*In 100% transparency you could quibble that "insurgency" or "unconventional warfare" or similar terms are a better description then "terrorists" for the exact dynamic we're talking because you could see "terrorism" as a goal or motivation instead a "level" of warfare. I think that's semantics, but I'll grant that the distinction might be seen as more meaningful for other people so I'm acknowledging it here.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

What do you guys think terrorists* ARE?

Existing by blurring the lines between the civilian population and "the bad guys" is what they do, it's how they work.

There's a reason Hamas and Al Qaida and ISIS never put on matching uniforms, form divisions and brigades, and meet their enemy in open traditional combat.

"We can win the battle, alls we gots to do is separate the terrorist from the population first" is a pretty functionally denying what terrorism is. If that's the standard then we're functionally declaring Terrorism to be a valid and winning strategy.

The fact that the line between combatant and non-combatant is so blurry in this conflict is 100% the fault of one side.

When you build your command centers in "non-combatant" buildings (as Hamas is notorious for) you don't get to cry crocodile tears when there's collateral damage.

*In 100% transparency you could quibble that "insurgency" or "unconventional warfare" or similar terms are a better description then "terrorists" for the exact dynamic we're talking because you could see "terrorism" as a goal or motivation instead a "level" of warfare. I think that's semantics, but I'll grant that the distinction might be seen as more meaningful for other people so I'm acknowledging it here.

do you feel the same way about US terrorists in America?

 

[JoeMorgue]

do you feel the same way about US terrorists in America?

I feel like you're going for a different "gotcha" here but sure when the Crips or the Michigan Militia or the Oathkeepers march into Canada and pretend that 1/4th of Manitoba is their scared ancestorial homeland and starting blowing themselves up outside Tim Hortons and we don't do anything about it, sure.

 

[Ziggurat]

So? The whole point is to delegitimize Hamas. Make the PA successful because IT IS NOT HAMAS!!! Give Palestine an alternative THAT IS NOT HAMAS!!!!

And how exactly do you achieve that? I mean on a practical level, how do you go into Gaza and give the people there something other than Hamas? Who's actually doing that work? Who makes up the boots on the ground? How do you convince those people to do that work? And how do you stop Hamas from simply killing them? An alternative to Hamas sounds great in principle, but in practice, I don't see how that's even possible at the moment.

Honestly, you seem to really strongly equate Palestine with Hamas.

Hamas has total control of Gaza. They effectively are Gaza, for anyone trying to deal with Gaza from the outside.

 

[JoeMorgue]

As of 2021 ~53% of Palestinians supported Hamas, which is a greater approval rating then the United States has for its Congress or the UK approves of its Parliament, but we'll just keeping pretending that's not true.

 

[lobosrul5]

You'll not get a straight answer that you find acceptable because you have made up a complete strawman and are spamming the thread trying to defend it.

Israel does not need to "find space" for anyone. The space already exists and has been there for decades: West Bank and Gaza.

Israel does not need to find space "within its borders" because West Bank and Gaza are not within Israel's borders. Even Israel mostly recognizes that, having not annexed Gaza and only part of West Bank.

Really, that's all. West Bank, Gaza. Get the damn settlements out of West Bank, excepting maybe the big suburbs of Jerusalem. Resettle less than 100,000 Jewish extremists and the whole thing de-escalates dramatically.

Fix West Bank first because it already has a government that has been willing to compromise. That willingness to compromise has resulted in the continued expansion of settlements, the continued murder of Palestinians by extremist settlers - 50 in the last week.

So stop punishing the Palestinian Authority for its willingness to accept the Oslo Accords. Make West Bank more contiguous by removing settlements and the hundreds of roadblocks and checkpoints needed to subsidize their security. Make West Bank the model of how Israel can actually allow Palestine to exist - NOT IN ISRAEL!!!

Then use that model as a proposal to the people in Gaza. Not Hamas! Hamas is a terrorist organization, we all get that! Propose to PEOPLE, not the terrorist organization that rules them. Give them a viable alternative that does not result in continued murder and extirpation by settlers as is currently still seen daily in West Bank.

Make West Bank work, export the model to Gaza.

Repeat after me: West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.
West Bank and Gaza are NOT In ISRAEL.

The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!
The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!
The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!
The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!
The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas rules them as a dictatorship that has blocked the three most recent elections!

Recognize these basic realities and I'll take you more seriously.

I think Israel should accept that basic premise. The West Bank isn't yours (with perhaps a small area excepted), and Gaza isn't yours. THEN the "rest of world" must stop putting the problem of Gaza on Israel to fix. ITS NOT THEIRS. It was never theirs, its not their fault the UK and UN ****** **** up in 1948, and then the Arab League invaded, and ******* **** up even worse.
Rest of world needs to come up with the solution.

 

[dudalb]

I think Israel should accept that basic premise. The West Bank isn't yours (with perhaps a small area excepted), and Gaza isn't yours. THEN the "rest of world" must stop putting the problem of Gaza on Israel to fix. ITS NOT THEIRS. It was never theirs, its not their fault the UK and UN ****** **** up in 1948, and then the Arab League invaded, and ******* **** up even worse.
Rest of world needs to come up with the solution.

One idea, put the Old City of Jerusalem under some kind of internatonal sontrol, find some nation to adminster it who does not have dog in the fight
Japan has been suggested.....

 

[lobosrul5]

One idea, put the Old City of Jerusalem under some kind of internatonal sontrol, find some nation to adminster it who does not have dog in the fight
Japan has been suggested.....

Yeah the old quarter aka "special religious" part can be some sort of special admin zone. The police can all work in trios: one Christian, one Jew, and one Muslim. All of them guys vetted to be non hateful bastards.

Or all Japanese... I have to wonder what would be in it for them though.