Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Ziggurat]

Yeah the old quarter aka "special religious" part can be some sort of special admin zone. The police can all work in trios: one Christian, one Jew, and one Muslim. All of them guys vetted to be non hateful bastards.

Or all Japanese... I have to wonder what would be in it for them though.

There's absolutely nothing in it for them, and they would have to be idiots to agree to it.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Or maybe because, once again, they're leery of Palestinian refugees after events like the whole Black September thing.

Black September was a long time ago. The Arab states continue to keep the Palestinians dispossessed and unable to get work permits or residency pretty much anywhere in the Middle East. (AFAIK, Saudi Arabia is the only Gulf country that grants Palestinians residency permits.)
Holding people responsible for the violent actions of their grandparents sounds very much like collective punishment and guilt by association to me.
I repeat my point: it serves the interests of the rulers of the Arab world to keep the Palestinians angry and dispossessed.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

30 km down the road to where? Is there free land there for them to settle?

You misunderstand.
They are already 30 km down the road- in Gaza and the West Bank. One of the major sticking points has been the dogged insistence of the so-called 'Right of Return', of millions of people whose ancestors may have settled in what's now Israel as late as 1946, and who were largely itinerant, mobile labourers. The claimed connection to land in Israel is, quite often, tenuous and nowhere near as deep-rooted as is claimed.
If they gave up on the right of return, the conflict could be much more easily solved. By accepting that a move a few kilometres down the road, to a pretty much identical patch of scrubby desert, is no hardship at all compared with the misery of the current situation, the Palestinians could move things along. They aren't doing this, largely because their murderous, antisemitic leaders won't let them. preferring instead to prolong the suffering of their own people.
For the sake of balance, let me add that Israel is guilty of using excessive force, collective punishment, and the ever-expanding West Bank settlements are also a serious impediment to peace.

 

[Aridas]

Sure there is. It's just couched in language about keeping Israel for the Jews.

Nope. That's fundamentally different. Israel doesn't have denying the right of Palestinians to a Palestinian State baked in, just the preservation of their own. There certainly are a number of politicians who oppose a Palestinian State and are willing to try to twist things as they please, but that's a problem with the far right in general.

Otherwise they could have granted Palestinians Israeli citizenship and been done with it by now. Israel's far-right factions could never accept that, because the elimination of Palestinians on Israeli soil (to forestall any well acktuallies about the existence of Palestine as a political entity) is why they have the power they do.

Actually, that's something I wonder about. Political feasibility aside, what fraction of Palestinian civilians would be perfectly happy integrating into Israeli society? No second-class citizen crap or anything, just straight-up peacefully joining the community and contributing as equals. What fraction of Israeli civilians would be tolerant of that? They wouldn't need to roll out the red carpet, just refrain from outright hostility and discrimination. In short, how few are the people on both sides actually driving this continuing conflict?

Hard to say, quite honestly, given the mix of issues in play. If I recall correctly (which I may well not be and which is reasonably likely to have changed somewhat even if I am remembering correctly), a slight majority of the Arabs were polled as preferring direct, full rights/integration into Israel. A large majority of the Jews were opposed. I suspect that much of that opposition is at least partially rooted in what I seem to recall as the admission by a number of the Arabs that they would be happy to effectively destroy Israel via democracy and outvoting the Jews. Combine that with the constant reminders over quite a long period of time that a friggin' lot of Arabs and their leaders would prefer Israel to be eliminated and that puts a nasty damper on the feasibility of the idea and how meaningful peaceful integration would be because of the easily and safely predictable consequences of granting the Palestinians full citizenship.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

have you talked with any Settlers about this?

They very much deny the right of Palestinians to a Palestinian State.
And they are supported by the current government.

 

[Aridas]

have you talked with any Settlers about this?

They very much deny the right of Palestinians to a Palestinian State.
And they are supported by the current government.

 

[webfusion]

have you talked with any Settlers about this?

They very much deny the right of Palestinians to a Palestinian State.
And they are supported by the current government.

Nonsense.

There are hundreds of thousands of Israelis living all across Judea and Samaria. The vast majority of them are just regular folks, living in suburban homes & apartments, generally 20 minutes' drive from either Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Their poitical views range across the spectrum, and to broad-brush "settlers" like you just did is outrageous. I have many friends & relatives who are residents of these communities, and we've had a variety of conversations about what the Palestinians have a right to. I've never heard any of these individuals say that Palestinians should not have a State. What I have heard them say is the Palestinians cannot establish a confrontation State, with the underlying desire to perpetrate what happened on Oct 7th.
In any case, no 'settlers' are marching around shouting "From the River to the Sea, Israel Shall Be Free" ---

 

[theprestige]

is the sentiment here that we shouldn't eradicate Hamas if the didn't plan on the killing of all Jews and just kill every jew they can?

I don't get the level of agitation here.

Actions speak louder than words, and should have more severe consequences.
I don't see what genocidal rhetoric adds to mass murder, severity-wise.

For me it adds nuance to questions about negotiation, compromise, reparations, etc. I think someone has a legitimate grievance, I'm more willing to charitably evaluate their use of force to press their claims. I'm more likely to welcome their proposals for cease-fire, truce, negotiations, compromise. I'm more likely to support giving a little to get a little. I'm more likely to support reparations in exchange for peace.

On the other hand, when someone makes it clear that they just want me dead, and that any cease-fire they propose is just so they can catch their breath before trying to kill me some more? Boop to that.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

saying they want you dead is in itself a negotiation tactic, a chip that could be replaced by something more civil in return for concessions.

Hamas, like every organization, evolves one funeral at a time. Many people who participated in the attacks didn't survive or won't for much longer.
And it is unlikely that the new generation will be even more bloodthirsty than the last one - there isn't that much room to the bottom.

 

[Ziggurat]

saying they want you dead is in itself a negotiation tactic

Uh, no. It's what they actually want. They demonstrate that constantly, through actually killing people and then celebrating their deaths. Why won't you believe them?

 

[theprestige]

saying they want you dead is in itself a negotiation tactic, a chip that could be replaced by something more civil in return for concessions.

And that's why Hamas conceded that chip in return for Israel's withdrawal from Gaza. /s

Israel made concessions. Hamas did not respond by saying it's a good start, making reciprocal concessions, and pursuing detente and rapprochement along the proposed lines. No, they took those concessions as a respite, to build up their murder machine and press forward with their program to kill more Jews.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

As of 2021 ~53% of Palestinians supported Hamas, which is a greater approval rating then the United States has for its Congress or the UK approves of its Parliament, but we'll just keeping pretending that's not true.

Hmm.

Western democracies that have flourished and who's people enjoy among the highest standards of living in the world express disapproval of their governing institutions while people living in destitution beyond most people's comprehension signal approval of theirs.

Right off the bat it seems evident that "approval" may take on entirely different connotations despite referring to the same word.

So maybe it's cultural?

Maybe the equivalent wording in the local language isn't the same as what we typically expect in an approval poll.

Maybe it's different when the group being asked about controls the guns, infrastructure, and has a track record of removing troublesome dissent. Other countries run terribly have 90+% approval. So maybe it just means Hamas is only able to partially cow its people into public acquiescence.

Maybe it serves as a stand in statement of disdain for the enemies of the group being asked about, but doesn't really express the more complicated views a person could have on the situation.

After all, it seems to work rather readily the other way around. If you criticize Israel, you must be a terrorist lover.

 

[dudalb]

Hmm.

Western democracies that have flourished and who's people enjoy among the highest standards of living in the world express disapproval of their governing institutions while people living in destitution beyond most people's comprehension signal approval of theirs.

Right off the bat it seems evident that "approval" may take on entirely different connotations despite referring to the same word.

So maybe it's cultural?

Maybe the equivalent wording in the local language isn't the same as what we typically expect in an approval poll.

Maybe it's different when the group being asked about controls the guns, infrastructure, and has a track record of removing troublesome dissent. Other countries run terribly have 90+% approval. So maybe it just means Hamas is only able to partially cow its people into public acquiescence.

Maybe it serves as a stand in statement of disdain for the enemies of the group being asked about, but doesn't really express the more complicated views a person could have on the situation.

After all, it seems to work rather readily the other way around. If you criticize Israel, you must be a terrorist lover.

No, if you try to justify or excuse HAMAS you are a terrorist lover. And a few hee are doing that undre the guise of "Explaining " about HAMAS.

 

[dudalb]

I see that support for the Palestinains seems to have merged with SUpport for HAMAS in the protests.
At least in the US, this is going to backfire bigtime.

 

[webfusion]

No, if you try to justify or excuse HAMAS you are a terrorist lover. And a few here are doing that under the guise of "Explaining " about HAMAS.

Considering that HAMAS is the de-facto and de-jure government of Gaza, and even if Israel does kill every one of their top leaders in Gaza and collapses every tunnel, “destroying” the organization may not be possible.

Once you come to that realization, whereby HAMAS will have a role in post-war Gaza, you'll understand that all this wet-dreaming of Gaza without a HAMAS component (even if it's just HAMAS technocrats and engineers and financiers and bureaucrats) isn't realistic.

While this war is aiming to bring about the inability of HAMAS to continue armed operations, there are other considerations regarding what HAMAS represents to the Palestinians.

This video may help with getting that point across.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouI_wwG2LKY (Hanan Ashrawi, she knows a thing or two about a thing or two)

 

[dudalb]

Considering that HAMAS is the de-facto and de-jure government of Gaza, and even if Israel does kill every one of their top leaders in Gaza and collapses every tunnel, “destroying” the organization may not be possible.

Once you come to that realization, whereby HAMAS will have a role in post-war Gaza, you'll understand that all this wet-dreaming of Gaza without a HAMAS component (even if it's just HAMAS technocrats and engineers and financiers and bureaucrats) isn't realistic.

While this war is aiming to bring about the inability of HAMAS to continue armed operations, there are other considerations regarding what HAMAS represents to the Palestinians.

This video may help with getting that point across.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouI_wwG2LKY (Hanan Ashrawi, she knows a thing or two about a thing or two)

Thanks for proving my point about HAMAS apologists.
The people who did the things that HAMAS did cannot be allowed to be in a postion of any power.
I suppose you would have wanted some Nazis to stay in power in Germany in 1945.
It is called Regime Change, and Isreal will not stop until it happens.

 

[webfusion]

Thanks for proving my point about HAMAS apologists.
The people who did the things that HAMAS did cannot be allowed to be in a postion of any power.
I suppose you would have wanted some Nazis to stay in power in Germany in 1945.
It is called Regime Change, and Israel will not stop until it happens.

You are addressing an ex-IDF sergeant, and certainly I'm in no way apologizing for anything the Islamic jihadists concoct.

As for "regime change" --- we've been hearing about that since 2008.
https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/talking-about-regime-change-in-gaza

and
https://twitter.com/mercnews/status/1714982500236132741 (Doyle McManus)

and
https://mepc.org/commentary/will-israel-crush-hamas-and-seek-regime-change-gaza

and
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/mepo.12703

 

[Aridas]

You are addressing an ex-IDF sergeant, and certainly I'm in no way apologizing for anything the Islamic jihadists concoct.

Yeah. Short of an actual genocide or military occupation, both of which would be problematic, the "little guys" in Hamas probably shouldn't really be Israeli targets anyways, regardless. They maybe should be Palestinian targets because of corruption, exploitation of Palestinians, and such, probably, but that's obviously a different kind of matter than what Israel has real cause to deal with directly.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Thanks for proving my point about HAMAS apologists.
The people who did the things that HAMAS did cannot be allowed to be in a postion of any power.
I suppose you would have wanted some Nazis to stay in power in Germany in 1945.
It is called Regime Change, and Isreal will not stop until it happens.

dudalb, are you actually reading webfusion's posts, or are you just responding to the voices in your head? Nothing webfusion said could remotely be construed as apologetics for Hamas.

 

[Aridas]

dudalb, are you actually reading webfusion's posts, or are you just responding to the voices in your head? Nothing webfusion said could remotely be construed as apologetics for Hamas.

Cosmic Yak, meet dudalb.