Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[The Great Zaganza]

is the sentiment here that we shouldn't eradicate Hamas if the didn't plan on the killing of all Jews and just kill every jew they can?

I don't get the level of agitation here.

Actions speak louder than words, and should have more severe consequences.
I don't see what genocidal rhetoric adds to mass murder, severity-wise.

 

[uke2se]

Their roots were actually formed while Egypt controlled that part of Palestine.

Does this matter? Displaced people in a war torn land get radicalized. As the oppression increases, so do their desire for vengeance.

 

[uke2se]

Again a core disagreement here is whether you choose to frame it as "Big strong Israel against widdle ole' Palestine" or "The tiny Jewish country of Israel against the entire rest of the Middle East who openly and proudly want to wipe it off the map."

Again the Palestinians could get everything they pretend to want by just going to one of the other dozen Muslim Arabic Speaking countries in the general area.

But they don't want that. They want to live where the Jews live because they don't want the Jews to be there.

The core difference is whether or not you believe this is really about some actual meaningful subset of Muslims pining for some long lost homeland that by pure coincidence is exactly where the people they hate are at.

Nobody here is stupid. "What's the moral complexity of someone being given a technically valid reason for violence against a group you've always hated and wanted to destroy anyway" is in the discussion.

They have been living where the Jews live for hundreds if not thousands of years. Now they have been displaced. They aren't allowed anywhere else because nobody wants a huge diaspora of displaced people in their country. What do you actually think the Palestinian people should do? Do you not think that there could be any way the two peoples could co-exist?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

One more thing for the "it matters that they called for genocide" people here.

There are people in the Israeli government RIGHT NOW who have called for the killing of all Palestinians, and their support comes from Rabbis who say that on a regular basis.

By the logic of expressed wish of genocide, the current government is as guilty has Hamas.
Which is why I try to steer clear of this line of arguement.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

One more thing for the "it matters that they called for genocide" people here.

There are people in the Israeli government RIGHT NOW who have called for the killing of all Palestinians, and their support comes from Rabbis and Settlers who say that on a regular basis.

By the logic of expressed wish of genocide, the current government is as guilty as Hamas.
Which is why I try to steer clear of this line of argument.

 

[Lplus]

One more thing for the "it matters that they called for genocide" people here.

There are people in the Israeli government RIGHT NOW who have called for the killing of all Palestinians, and their support comes from Rabbis and Settlers who say that on a regular basis.

By the logic of expressed wish of genocide, the current government is as guilty as Hamas.
Which is why I try to steer clear of this line of argument.

Except that those who express that wish are NOT "The Israeli Government" - I doubt they are even a significant percentage.

Your equivalence fails.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Except that those who express that wish are NOT "The Israeli Government" - I doubt they are even a significant percentage.

Your equivalence fails.

IN the government - part of a coalition Netanyahu formed, fully aware of past and current statements by his ministers.

Put your head in the sand, but it is a fact that talk of the eradication of Palestinians is no longer pure fringe in Israeli conversation, not when top politicians and theologians do so publicly.

But of course it doesn't count, because it's always only a few bad apples when your side does it, and a universal sentiment when the other side does it.

As mentioned, I think we should ignore this talk of genocide FROM BOTH SIDES, because focusing on actions is more fruitful than getting bogged down in rheotropic.

 

[Lplus]

IN the government - part of a coalition Netanyahu formed, fully aware of past and current statements by his ministers.

Put your head in the sand, but it is a fact that talk of the eradication of Palestinians is no longer pure fringe in Israeli conversation, not when top politicians and theologians do so publicly.

But of course it doesn't count, because it's always only a few bad apples when your side does it, and a universal sentiment when the other side does it.

As mentioned, I think we should ignore this talk of genocide FROM BOTH SIDES, because focusing on actions is more fruitful than getting bogged down in rheotropic.

Yeah, sure - let me know when genocide becomes the official policy of the Israeli government, then I'll take your argument seriously.

 

[Puppycow]

Recently I’ve heard the term “open-air prison” used to describe Gaza. Does anyone disagree with this term? Please understand that I am not an expert on this topic. I’m just saying something I’ve heard used and wondering if there’s a counter argument. Let’s take an ordinary young adult as an example. A 20-year-old whose misfortune it was to be born in Gaza, but who is not fundamentally a bad person and only wants the opportunity to live a better life. Not a supporter of Hamas or any other terror group. Is there any possibility for him to leave Gaza? Or is he simply doomed to live his life within these tiny borders? And if he is, how is it not an “open-air prison”?

 

[Shadowdweller]

They have been living where the Jews live for hundreds if not thousands of years. Now they have been displaced. They aren't allowed anywhere else because nobody wants a huge diaspora of displaced people in their country. What do you actually think the Palestinian people should do? Do you not think that there could be any way the two peoples could co-exist?

Except, of course, that a significant percentage of "Palestinians" were never any more "indigenous" than the Israelis. Vast numbers of Arab immigrants followed British development of the area, after it was taken from the Ottoman Empire; in part to work oilfields. Similar waves of migrants were settled in (Trans)jordan. However, with one exception, Jewish settlements were never chartered there. Thus no talk of partitioning. And a fair few of the Jewish immigrants to Israel are there because they were themselves displaced from surrounding countries.

 

[steenkh]

Recently I’ve heard the term “open-air prison” used to describe Gaza. Does anyone disagree with this term? Please understand that I am not an expert on this topic. I’m just saying something I’ve heard used and wondering if there’s a counter argument. Let’s take an ordinary young adult as an example. A 20-year-old whose misfortune it was to be born in Gaza, but who is not fundamentally a bad person and only wants the opportunity to live a better life. Not a supporter of Hamas or any other terror group. Is there any possibility for him to leave Gaza? Or is he simply doomed to live his life within these tiny borders? And if he is, how is it not an “open-air prison”?

He would certainly not be welcomed in Denmark, unless he can prove that he is personally in danger of his life, and even then it would be difficult to get accepted as a refugee.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

They have been living where the Jews live for hundreds if not thousands of years.

In the general area of Palestine, yes. In those specific places, no. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were itinerant workers- labourers, farm workers etc., moving from place to place wherever the work took them.
Also, as has been noted on this thread already, the Jews who were displaced from Gaza and other areas of Palestine where they had lived for hundreds, if not thousands of years, have settled in Israel quite happily. They are not regarded as refugees by the Israeli government, nor are they trying to storm the border with Gaza trying to get back in. 'Peace for land' is something that many Israelis are willing to accept. The Palestinian Arabs, on the other hand, are largely not.

Now they have been displaced. They aren't allowed anywhere else because nobody wants a huge diaspora of displaced people in their country. What do you actually think the Palestinian people should do? Do you not think that there could be any way the two peoples could co-exist?

If you're talking about Jordan, Jordan IS their country. It was carved out of the Palestinian Mandate to placate the future King Abdullah, who wanted to be a king like his brother. There was, and to all intents and purposes, is, no real difference between 'Palestinians'- meaning, Palestinian Arabs- and 'Jordanians'. Jordan, though, has resolutely refused to let Palestinians get citizenship there.
Jordan also claimed- indeed, annexed- the West Bank, up until 1967, and didn't renounce its claim to that territory until much later. It's not a feasible solution now, but Jordan could have been set up as a homeland for Palestinian Arabs, thus avoiding a lot of the current conflict.
I should also add that the neighbouring states don't want to accept Palestinian refugees because they want them angry and dispossessed. This makes them an ideal stick with which to beat Israel.
To answer your question: the Palestinian people should rid themselves of their murderous, fanatical and corrupt leadership, and accept that moving 30km down the road is a price worth paying for a lasting peace.

 

[Lplus]

He would certainly not be welcomed in Denmark, unless he can prove that he is personally in danger of his life, and even then it would be difficult to get accepted as a refugee.

Because he's from Gaza,? and so tarred with the same brush as Hamas? even though his own views are different?

Given that he has no means to change the government of Gaza to one which agrees with his views, one might even say he's a prisoner of his own government....

 

[Shadowdweller]

I should also add that the neighbouring states don't want to accept Palestinian refugees because they want them angry and dispossessed. This makes them an ideal stick with which to beat Israel.

Or maybe because, once again, they're leery of Palestinian refugees after events like the whole Black September thing.

 

[steenkh]

Because he's from Gaza,? and so tarred with the same brush as Hamas? even though his own views are different?

No, because he is brown, and probably Muslim. But in order to avoid being labelled racist, even people who are white, and come from “western” countries are kicked out, if they cannot prove a special relationship to Denmark. But that is an entirely different subject. The issue here is that a young man from Gaza will not be welcome in Denmark, not even if he is bombed out of his home.

Are there any countries who would accept immigrants from Gaza?

 

[Lplus]

No, because he is brown, and probably Muslim. But in order to avoid being labelled racist, even people who are white, and come from “western” countries are kicked out, if they cannot prove a special relationship to Denmark. But that is an entirely different subject. The issue here is that a young man from Gaza will not be welcome in Denmark, not even if he is bombed out of his home.

So Denmark isn't really a good example anyway.

Are there any countries who would accept immigrants from Gaza?

A far more relevant question.

and if not why not?

 

[uke2se]

Recently I’ve heard the term “open-air prison” used to describe Gaza. Does anyone disagree with this term? Please understand that I am not an expert on this topic. I’m just saying something I’ve heard used and wondering if there’s a counter argument. Let’s take an ordinary young adult as an example. A 20-year-old whose misfortune it was to be born in Gaza, but who is not fundamentally a bad person and only wants the opportunity to live a better life. Not a supporter of Hamas or any other terror group. Is there any possibility for him to leave Gaza? Or is he simply doomed to live his life within these tiny borders? And if he is, how is it not an “open-air prison”?

There's very little those living in Gaza can do to leave. Everything goes in and out only with Israel's say so. That said, I wouldn't call it a prison because that implies that the people stuck there are criminals. I would call it a concentration camp.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

UK Channel 4 has a report on the hospital bombing. Ultimately it couches its conclusion based on the very reasonable caveat that there has been no independent investigation, but it points out that much of Israel's claim about the bombing does not make sense:

- The damage to the hospital and surrounding areas seems more consistent with an airburst weapon rather than a ground detonation weapon

- The trajectory that Israel claims for a Hamas fired rocket is not consistent with the widely seen video of a destroyed airborne rocket. (Israel's claimed Hamas origin site is not in a position consistent with the video of the destroyed rocket)

- Arab journalists claim that the supposed intercepted Hamas telephone call taking responsibility for the bombing is laughably fraudulent with obviously poor syntax and accents for the supposed Hamas operatives

- They point out Israel's long history of straight up lying about their war crimes, such as gunning down journalists or bombing civilians

- They also point out that the IDF has been bombing a variety of obviously non-combatant facilities, like known UN run buildings.

It's a 5 minute video, so no direct quotations, but it's worth watching here:

https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

 

[uke2se]

Except, of course, that a significant percentage of "Palestinians" were never any more "indigenous" than the Israelis. Vast numbers of Arab immigrants followed British development of the area, after it was taken from the Ottoman Empire; in part to work oilfields. Similar waves of migrants were settled in (Trans)jordan. However, with one exception, Jewish settlements were never chartered there. Thus no talk of partitioning. And a fair few of the Jewish immigrants to Israel are there because they were themselves displaced from surrounding countries.

Would you say the current Jewish people of Israel have a better claim to the entire territory than the Palestinians, and what do you think should be done to the displaced Palestinians?

 

[uke2se]

In the general area of Palestine, yes. In those specific places, no. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were itinerant workers- labourers, farm workers etc., moving from place to place wherever the work took them.
Also, as has been noted on this thread already, the Jews who were displaced from Gaza and other areas of Palestine where they had lived for hundreds, if not thousands of years, have settled in Israel quite happily. They are not regarded as refugees by the Israeli government, nor are they trying to storm the border with Gaza trying to get back in. 'Peace for land' is something that many Israelis are willing to accept. The Palestinian Arabs, on the other hand, are largely not.



If you're talking about Jordan, Jordan IS their country. It was carved out of the Palestinian Mandate to placate the future King Abdullah, who wanted to be a king like his brother. There was, and to all intents and purposes, is, no real difference between 'Palestinians'- meaning, Palestinian Arabs- and 'Jordanians'. Jordan, though, has resolutely refused to let Palestinians get citizenship there.
Jordan also claimed- indeed, annexed- the West Bank, up until 1967, and didn't renounce its claim to that territory until much later. It's not a feasible solution now, but Jordan could have been set up as a homeland for Palestinian Arabs, thus avoiding a lot of the current conflict.
I should also add that the neighbouring states don't want to accept Palestinian refugees because they want them angry and dispossessed. This makes them an ideal stick with which to beat Israel.
To answer your question: the Palestinian people should rid themselves of their murderous, fanatical and corrupt leadership, and accept that moving 30km down the road is a price worth paying for a lasting peace.

30 km down the road to where? Is there free land there for them to settle?