The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Vixen]

Ah, then that would mean that whoever translated the article to English translated that word as "activated" in that excerpt. Thus, some people translate that word as "activated" in some contexts.

Yet you're certain this can't happen, even though the translation you quoted does exactly that.



Are those the same word in both places? If so, how do you know that the "tuned" translation is correct but the "activated" translation is wrong?

In the latter part, the English derived word, activointi - activated - is used.

Here is the article in full for those who want to be sure of the meaning, as it is behind a pay wall otherwise:

Kotimaa
Estonian hätäpoijuista oli unohtunut viritys


Tukkimäki Paavo

28.1.1995 2:00
Autolautta Estonian kaksi hätäpoijua eivät lähettäneet signaalia pelastajille, koska niitä ei ollut viritetty laivalla. Hätäpoijut pulpahtivat pinnalle asianmukaisesti laivan upotessa.
Turman kansainvälinen tutkimuskomissio on selvittänyt Viron rannikolle ajautuneiden hätäpoijujen toimintaa. Poijujen akut olivat täydessä varauksessa, mutta ne eivät voineet lähettää mitään virittämättöminä, kertoo komission jäsen Kari Lehtola .
Komissio päätti kaksipäiväisen kokouksensa perjantaina Helsingissä.
Ns. EPIRB-hätäpoijut oli huollettu äskettäin, ja ne oli sijoitettu sääntöjen mukaisesti paikoilleen. Asetusvaiheessa unohtui kuitenkin poijujen aktivointi: suojakansi pitää avata ja kääntää kytkin päälle.
Hätäpoijun aktivointi kuului Estonialla radiosähköttäjien tehtäviin, joita laivalla oli kaksi. Tutkinta on vielä kesken, mutta komissio on kuullut radiosähköttäjää asiassa, kertoi komission asiantuntijajäsen Asser Koivisto .
Hätäpoijun tarkoitus on lähettää uponneen laivan sijainti sekä kertoa etsijöille laivan nimi.
Koiviston arvion mukaan poijujen mykkyydellä ei ollut suurta vaikutusta itse pelastustoimiin, sillä poijut pulpahtavat pintaan vasta laivan upottua.(STT)
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003402905.html

Glossary:

viritys - tuning

viritetty - tuned

virittämättöminä - untuned [= in the state of being without tuning verb tense]

sääntöjen - according to rules [ ='as per regulations', genitive]

aktivointi - activation

 

[lobosrul5]

In the latter part, the English derived word, activointi - activated - is used.

Here is the article in full for those who want to be sure of the meaning, as it is behind a pay wall otherwise:

Glossary:

viritys - tuning

viritetty - tuned

virittämättöminä - untuned [= in the state of being without tuning verb tense]

sääntöjen - according to rules [ ='as per regulations', genitive]

aktivointi - activation

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/virittämätön

Adjective
virittämätön

untuned
unmodded



I'm finding the same at other sources. It can mean un-modded.

 

[Vixen]

Depends on what can be meant by the Finnish word here translated as "setup."

The term used here is: 'ne oli sijoitettu sääntöjen mukaisesti paikoilleen'

'They were placed (situated) as per the rules in their place'.

'Asetusvaiheessa unohtui kuitenkin poijujen aktivointi: suojakansi pitää avata ja kääntää kytkin päälle.'

Asetus - setting up

'In the setting up stage (vaihessa) however the buoys activation was forgotten - the protective cover has to be opened and the switch [kytkin] turned on [kääntää...päälle]'.

 

[Vixen]

Depends on what can be meant by the Finnish word here translated as "setup."

Asetus is set up. Accident is onnettomus.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Your running joke is extremely tedious and boring now.

As soon as you find a manual for a Kannad 406F you can come right back and tell us all about how it *really* works.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Lehtola said 'tuned'.

And what do you conclude from that assumption?

 

[JayUtah]

Asetus is set up. Accident is onnettomus.

Well, they don't expressly have to use some particular word to mean "accident." The problem with the newspaper account, however translated, is that there is no "setup" for a manual-only activated EPIRB. There is literally the battery-test button, and then there is literally the switch whose only function is to start the beacon transmitting. That switch is under a guard, since you get fined for setting it off in a non-emergency situation. It's as literal an on-off switch as there can possibly be.

 

[JayUtah]

Vixen, from the paragraph in your excerpt quoted below

Ns. EPIRB-hätäpoijut oli huollettu äskettäin, ja ne oli sijoitettu sääntöjen mukaisesti paikoilleen. Asetusvaiheessa unohtui kuitenkin poijujen aktivointi: suojakansi pitää avata ja kääntää kytkin päälle.

you translate the verb in the highlighted sentence in the first person indicative. Who is speaking here? Your article quotes from Lehtola for one paragraph and from Koivisto for another paragraph. Who is speaking in the first person in that middle paragraph? Who is saying "I (or we) forgot to activate the buoys?"

 

[Vixen]

Well, they don't expressly have to use some particular word to mean "accident." The problem with the newspaper account, however translated, is that there is no "setup" for a manual-only activated EPIRB. There is literally the battery-test button, and then there is literally the switch whose only function is to start the beacon transmitting. That switch is under a guard, since you get fined for setting it off in a non-emergency situation. It's as literal an on-off switch as there can possibly be.

As per IMO CHAPTER III it is very obviously a free-float automatic buoy.

 

[JayUtah]

As per IMO CHAPTER III...

No. Asked and answered.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, from the paragraph in your excerpt quoted belowyou translate the verb in the highlighted sentence in the first person indicative. Who is speaking here? Your article quotes from Lehtola for one paragraph and from Koivisto for another paragraph. Who is speaking in the first person in that middle paragraph? Who is saying "I (or we) forgot to activate the buoys?"

Finnish uses the passive tense a lot. It is literally, 'it was forgotten' it doesn't indicate who in particular but given the context, we can assume one of the two ship's radio electricians.

If these guys are qualified technicians it seems unlikely to me they would 'forget'.

 

[JayUtah]

Finnish uses the passive tense a lot.

So did you translate it as first-person active indicative, or was it a machine translation?

Who is the authority for that a quote? Lehtola? Koivisto? Someone else? I'm not asking you to assume who did or didn't do something, or who is or is not being referred to. Who stated the answer (in passive voice, not tense) in the press conference?

If these guys are qualified technicians it seems unlikely to me they would 'forget'.

Please confine your opinions to matters within your expertise (if any).

 

[phiwum]

Depends on what can be meant by the Finnish word here translated as "setup."

Sure. I should also point out that I mistakenly said that the quoted passage included placing the EPIRB in the holder as part of setup. It doesn't say that, so I was wrong to dismiss Lobos's suggestion that "setup" described the activity required when the **** hit the fan, i.e., that the EPIRB would be turned on.

 

[phiwum]

In the latter part, the English derived word, activointi - activated - is used.

Here is the article in full for those who want to be sure of the meaning, as it is behind a pay wall otherwise:

Glossary:

viritys - tuning

viritetty - tuned

virittämättöminä - untuned [= in the state of being without tuning verb tense]

sääntöjen - according to rules [ ='as per regulations', genitive]

aktivointi - activation

Okay, then we're still left with the conclusion that you were simply, plainly wrong when you wrote:

If you read the article carefully, Lehtola confirms that in the set up phase, the ship's electrical radiographers, 'forgot' to tune the EPIRB's. This omission happened in the set up phase.

Here's what the article says, once more:

The Commission concluded its two-day meeting on Friday in Helsinki.
The so-called EPIRB emergency buoys had recently been maintained and had been placed in place according to the rules. However, during the setup phase, we forgot to activate the buoys: the protective cover must be opened and the switch turned on.The activation of the emergency buoy was part of the tasks of the Estonia radio telegraphists, of which there were two on board. The investigation is still ongoing, but the Commission has consulted the radio operator on the matter, said Commission expert member Asser Koivisto.

This is the article you referenced. It says that the EPIRB was not *activated* in the setup phase. It doesn't say that it wasn't *tuned* in the setup phase. You are just plainly wrong about what was said.

 

[phiwum]

No. Asked and answered.

This reply isn't quite apt. I don't think that Vixen has ever really asked a question about how EPIRBs work. She's just asserted that, for instance, the EPIRBs on Estonia were automatic activation. Thus, a more precise reply is "Asserted and rebutted."

 

[JayUtah]

Thus, a more precise reply is "Asserted and rebutted."

"Asked and answered" is the legal formula for an objection in a court whose ground rules prohibit asking a witness the same question more than once. It's meant to say we've already covered this ground.

 

[JayUtah]

I should also point out that I mistakenly said that the quoted passage included placing the EPIRB in the holder as part of setup. It doesn't say that...

[The article] says that the EPIRB was not *activated* in the setup phase. It doesn't say that it wasn't *tuned* in the setup phase. You are just plainly wrong about what was said.

The article seems at odds with facts we know to be true by other, more reliable sources. But it's facile to say it's wrong without attempting a plausible hypothesis for how and why it's wrong. I say "seems" because there are simply too many variables here to be dogmatic on whether it reports an engagement that conforms to fact.

Working backwards, we have the issue of translation into English. We are relying on an unholy alliance of inaccurate machine translations and untrustworthy Vixen translations. We've already seen her back away from the idea that a word in one language must always mean exactly one other word in another language, but as usual she hasn't acknowledged her error.

Alongside this is point you bear out by noting that Vixen can't even report her own source consistently or correctly.

We have the issue of statements made in the original Finnish: who made them and whether they accurately capture the information developed in the commission sessions. Neither Kari Lehtola nor Asser Koivisto is an expert on EPIRBs, yet they are the only two sources named in the article. The key sentence is not attributed to anyone. Is it a conclusion or summary by the article's author?

That gives rise to the issue of how the information was conveyed from the named sources to the article author. Was it a press conference? Was it a one-on-one interview? Was it merely overheard? How much of the brief article contents was a summary by the writer? The article reports that the conference in question lasted two days. At the end of it, you have a lawyer and an unrelated technician trying their best to recall the sequence of likely events presented earlier by subject-matter experts.

In the final analysis we see customary sources of error that arise in journalism and in the reporting of technical details by non-technical spokespeople. This is a plausible enough hypothesis to account for why the submitted reporting may differ from details more correctly established through less error-prone means.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Google translate says 'to tune' is 'säätää' in Finnish. Is that correct?

Maybe it's an irregular verb.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

untuned
unmodded



I'm finding the same at other sources. It can mean un-modded.

There's the problem. The Estonia was playing the vanilla version of EPIRB. That sucker shipped with more problems than Skyrim.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Because they were manual activation only.

Your running joke is extremely tedious and boring now.

People who repeatedly reject well-documented facts often regard those facts as extremely tedious and boring.