The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Andy_Ross]

If it was a military operation and you are determined:

• to stop the illicit cargo reaching enemy hands
• or you are in conflict with A.N. Other, as with serious organised crime

Then to be absolutely sure your operation succeeds you will:

• attack on two fronts
• you will make sure rescue is not possible
• you will ensure radio signals are interfered with
• you will disable any signal that gives out a distress call or mayday.

It is telling that the JAIC do not go anywhere near these issues, suggesting a definite label of 'classified'.

Why would you need to kill all the passengers after the ship had already sunk?

 

[Andy_Ross]

I obviously do not know but I suspect so, given all the circumstances surrounding the whole thing.

Consider this: the EPIRB's were found dumped together with a whole load of other life-saving equipment (OK, so one was caught up in a fisherman's net) all at a tiny fishing village in Estonia called Dirhami. No bodies, just a pile of life rafts, life vests, life buoys (some still with 'Viking Sally' emblazoned thereon) and other equipment. Enough to fill a warehouse, which is where they were placed.

Even if you have automatic EPIRB's common sense tells you they can be switched off. For example, all automatic free-float buoys can be used manually and this would include not allowing the signal to emit until you are ready for it to.

Automatic buoys start to transmit as soon as the sensor is wet.
The manual switch has no effect on this.

Why is it strange that all the stuff designed to float after a ship sinks floated?

Bodies were recovered from the water at the time of the sinking. Why do you think any would wash up?

 

[phiwum]

Lt Capn Mikko Mononen who was on duty that night said that although he didn't get the message until 01:36 all of the 'maydays' had been automatically recorded by their systems.

How were the maydays automatically recorded by their systems if a communications blackout prevented them from reaching the station?

 

[Andy_Ross]

But it offers no explanation at all as to why they did not emit a signal when immersed and rising to the surface, given they had been inspected and certified as being in working order the week before. It is not good enough to merely record 'they were switched off'. An explanation is required.

Because they were manual activation only.

 

[phiwum]

It is what the JAIC said at a press conference and reported on 28 Jan 1995.

HS

That excerpt you included is missing a quotation mark indicating where Lehtola's quote begins. I guess it's a second hand excerpt, perhaps translated. I wonder whether the original article in its original language (Finnish, I suppose) could be found.

Did Lehtola just let slip something he shouldn't have? The report never says the EPIRBs were untuned. Was he a clumsy conspirator? Has he been silenced somehow?

Or perhaps he didn't mean "untuned" at all. After all, the apparent quote is "The buoys' batteries were fully charged, but they could not transmit anything untuned," but that's definitely not so. An "untuned" transmitter still transmits, just on the wrong frequency. So there is some sloppiness here, either in Lehtola's words or in the subsequent translation.

 

[lobosrul5]

How were the maydays automatically recorded by their systems if a communications blackout prevented them from reaching the station?

Sounds like Finnish ineptitude at their rescue station. The mayday's got there but they didn't immediately respond.

Was this due Russian, Swedish, or CIA covert action?! /s

 

[phiwum]

If you read the article carefully, Lehtola confirms that in the set up phase, the ship's electrical radiographers, 'forgot' to tune the EPIRB's. This omission happened in the set up phase.

Really? Here is a copy-and-paste from your own quotation:

The Commission concluded its two-day meeting on Friday in Helsinki.
The so-called EPIRB emergency buoys had recently been maintained and had been placed in place according to the rules. However, during the setup phase, we forgot to activate the buoys: the protective cover must be opened and the switch turned on.The activation of the emergency buoy was part of the tasks of the Estonia radio telegraphists, of which there were two on board. The investigation is still ongoing, but the Commission has consulted the radio operator on the matter, said Commission expert member Asser Koivisto.

Huh. It doesn't say they forgot to tune it. It says they forgot to activate it. (NOTE: Far as I understand it, that doesn't make any sense either, since one activates a manual activation EPIRB only when the **** hits the fan and an automatic activation EPIRB needs no prior activation either.)

So, you are grossly mistaken about what the article actually says about the setup phase. Or does "activate" mean "tune", but (the Finnish word for) "tune" doesn't mean "activate"?

 

[lobosrul5]

Really? Here is a copy-and-paste from your own quotation:



Huh. It doesn't say they forgot to tune it. It says they forgot to activate it. (NOTE: Far as I understand it, that doesn't make any sense either, since one activates a manual activation EPIRB only when the **** hits the fan and an automatic activation EPIRB needs no prior activation either.)

So, you are grossly mistaken about what the article actually says about the setup phase. Or does "activate" mean "tune", but (the Finnish word for) "tune" doesn't mean "activate"?

Maybe I'm missing context, but it could mean the guy on the ship whose job it was to activate the EPIRB in an emergency... did not do so.

 

[Metullus]

Maybe I'm missing context, but it could mean the guy on the ship whose job it was to activate the EPIRB in an emergency... did not do so.

Now that's just crazy talk...

 

[Vixen]

So you are guessing.

Now, this is an area where JayUtah specializes, but from what I know, this is eactly the point of a report like the one from JAIC. To identify what went wrong, and to suggest improvements. And that they did.

Exactly the point of the JAIC report. With too few people around, they will not react quickly enough, and they will not be able to get everything going quick enough.

The other point here is of course that if there is a recording of radio traffic, there wasn't a blackout. And there are recordings from several coastal stations, as well as on the ships.

Communication is a only party about technology - most of communication is about people. And the people did not do good enough.


But again we see the way you act. You claim something. I (or several others in this thread) show how you are wrong, in a point-by-point refutation including links to the official source material. And how do you respond? You do not acknowledge that you were wrong. Instead you just move on to the next thing, and that without any references to source material or anything like that.

That only tells me that in a couple of hours/days/weeks, we will see exactly the same subject being brought up again, with you again pretending that your points haven't been refuted over and over again.

Certainly not guessing. Tammes was one of the bodies recovered.


Consider this: had Tammes nd Ainsalu not gone the extra mile to get that Mayday out on their walkie talkies, clinging on for dear life at an angle of 40degrees, nobody might have realised MV Estonia was sinking at all.

 

[Vixen]

Because they were manual activation only.

Your running joke is extremely tedious and boring now.

 

[Vixen]

That excerpt you included is missing a quotation mark indicating where Lehtola's quote begins. I guess it's a second hand excerpt, perhaps translated. I wonder whether the original article in its original language (Finnish, I suppose) could be found.

Did Lehtola just let slip something he shouldn't have? The report never says the EPIRBs were untuned. Was he a clumsy conspirator? Has he been silenced somehow?

Or perhaps he didn't mean "untuned" at all. After all, the apparent quote is "The buoys' batteries were fully charged, but they could not transmit anything untuned," but that's definitely not so. An "untuned" transmitter still transmits, just on the wrong frequency. So there is some sloppiness here, either in Lehtola's words or in the subsequent translation.

The JAIC Report doesn't go into anything other than the bow visor. The rest of it is just scrappy narrative thrown together.

Lehtola said 'tuned'.

 

[Vixen]

Sounds like Finnish ineptitude at their rescue station. The mayday's got there but they didn't immediately respond.

Was this due Russian, Swedish, or CIA covert action?! /s

There was no ineptitude. The brave rescuers saved 44 people with the Super Puma.

 

[Vixen]

Really? Here is a copy-and-paste from your own quotation:



Huh. It doesn't say they forgot to tune it. It says they forgot to activate it. (NOTE: Far as I understand it, that doesn't make any sense either, since one activates a manual activation EPIRB only when the **** hits the fan and an automatic activation EPIRB needs no prior activation either.)

So, you are grossly mistaken about what the article actually says about the setup phase. Or does "activate" mean "tune", but (the Finnish word for) "tune" doesn't mean "activate"?

Read the original here, for yourself. You should be able to translate the headline and first few sentences. If you want more let me know.

https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003402905.html

It says 'tuned'.

 

[JayUtah]

The JAIC Report doesn't go into anything other than the bow visor. The rest of it is just scrappy narrative thrown together.

You are not the gold standard on what the final report of an investigative body should and should not contain. Maybe you should let us professionals do the job and stay put in your armchair.

Lehtola said 'tuned'.

So he said it in English, then?

 

[JayUtah]

Read the original here, for yourself....

It says 'tuned'.

It doesn't if it's in the original.

 

[phiwum]

Maybe I'm missing context, but it could mean the guy on the ship whose job it was to activate the EPIRB in an emergency... did not do so.

It says that during setup, the buoys were placed correctly but not activated. I don't think that sounds like "during the accident, the buoys were not activated."

 

[phiwum]

The JAIC Report doesn't go into anything other than the bow visor. The rest of it is just scrappy narrative thrown together.

Lehtola said 'tuned'.

You didn't respond to a single ******* point I made. I'll repeat it here.

That excerpt you included is missing a quotation mark indicating where Lehtola's quote begins. I guess it's a second hand excerpt, perhaps translated. I wonder whether the original article in its original language (Finnish, I suppose) could be found.

Did Lehtola just let slip something he shouldn't have? The report never says the EPIRBs were untuned. Was he a clumsy conspirator? Has he been silenced somehow?

Or perhaps he didn't mean "untuned" at all. After all, the apparent quote is "The buoys' batteries were fully charged, but they could not transmit anything untuned," but that's definitely not so. An "untuned" transmitter still transmits, just on the wrong frequency. So there is some sloppiness here, either in Lehtola's words or in the subsequent translation.

 

[phiwum]

Read the original here, for yourself. You should be able to translate the headline and first few sentences. If you want more let me know.

https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003402905.html

It says 'tuned'.

Ah, then that would mean that whoever translated the article to English translated that word as "activated" in that excerpt. Thus, some people translate that word as "activated" in some contexts.

Yet you're certain this can't happen, even though the translation you quoted does exactly that.

Estonia's emergency buoys had forgotten tuning


Tukkimäki Paavo

28.1.1995 2:00

The two emergency buoys on board the ferry Estonia did not send a signal to the rescuers because they were not tuned on board. The emergency buoys popped to the surface appropriately as the ship sank.

The International Commission of Inquiry into the Accident has investigated the operation of emergency buoys that drifted off the coast of Estonia. The buoys' batteries were fully charged, but they could not transmit anything untuned," says Commissioner Kari Lehtola.

The Commission concluded its two-day meeting on Friday in Helsinki.
The so-called EPIRB emergency buoys had recently been maintained and had been placed in place according to the rules. However, during the setup phase, we forgot to activate the buoys: the protective cover must be opened and the switch turned on.
The activation of the emergency buoy was part of the tasks of the Estonia radio telegraphists, of which there were two on board. The investigation is still ongoing, but the Commission has consulted the radio operator on the matter, said Commission expert member Asser Koivisto.

Are those the same word in both places? If so, how do you know that the "tuned" translation is correct but the "activated" translation is wrong?

 

[JayUtah]

It says that during setup, the buoys were placed correctly but not activated. I don't think that sounds like "during the accident, the buoys were not activated."

Depends on what can be meant by the Finnish word here translated as "setup."