Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Nessie]

I feel like we're gonna have to have a "Is collateral damage the same thing as murder/terrorism" discussion sooner or later.

Both sides have their reasons for killing babies, they will not stop their actions even though they know they cause the deaths of babies and they will condemn the other for killing babies.

That does not sit well with people who do not think there is any justifiable excuse to cause the deaths of babies.

 

[Planigale]

And?

We're well past the end of WW2. We can't go back and redo the formation of Israel somewhere else. Do you want to destroy Israel? If so, what actions are you willing to take to achieve that, in the face of armed resistance? Are you willing to kill all the Jews, as Hamas is? Kill enough of them to make the rest surrender? How exactly would you dismantle the state?

If you do not want to destroy Israel, then you need to deal with the reality of their existence, and counterfactuals about what might have been don't matter.



Yeah, because nobody ever promised to behave and then didn't. Great idea.

I was responding the argument about why should palestinians want to stay in palestine, if they could be relocated from palestine and promised* better lives elsewhere. I was making the point that many Jewish people decided to move to Palestine. So if it is good enough for European Jews, then it is good enough for Palestinian arabs.

*If anyone truly believes that once relocated they would end up in anything but shanty towns I have a bridge in NY for sale.

 

[Planigale]

Speaking of collateral damage.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...-israel-hamas-war_uk_6528edb2e4b0a304ff6fa871

Journalists in the West Bank have also been killed by the IDF prior to the Gaza war, and there are reports of Journalists on the Lebanese border killed or injured by the IDF.

 

[aniri]

According to CNN, "Hamas welcomes Russia's offer for mediation, praises Putin's position". I actually suspect the attack on Israel was coordinated with Putin.

 

[lionking]

According to CNN, "Hamas welcomes Russia's offer for mediation, praises Putin's position". I actually suspect the attack on Israel was coordinated with Putin.

This would not be at all surprising.

 

[ThatGuy11200]

According to CNN, "Hamas welcomes Russia's offer for mediation, praises Putin's position". I actually suspect the attack on Israel was coordinated with Putin.

7th October was Putin's birthday. So, if it wasn't coordinated, it's an amazing coincidence.

 

[aniri]

7th October was Putin's birthday. So, if it wasn't coordinated, it's an amazing coincidence.

Yes. He likes such 'coincidences'. Anna Politkovskaya was also killed on his birthday.

 

[Planigale]

Meanwhile Jewish terrorists (as described by Shin Bet) 'infiltrate' Palestinian settlements and kill unarmed Palestinian civilians.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/three-palestinians-said-killed-in-clashes-with-settlers-in-west-bank/

IDF seems less interested in dealing with these terrorist atrocities.

https://www.newarab.com/news/armed-israeli-settlers-attack-palestinians-masafer-yatta

Fifty one (51) Palestinians killed in the West Bank this week, over 700 injured.

An Israeli settler walks up to an unarmed Palestinian and shoots him, Israeli soldiers stand by and do nothing.

https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status...mmondreams.org/news/settler-attacks-west-bank

 

[Aridas]

Meanwhile Jewish terrorists (as described by Shin Bet) 'infiltrate' Palestinian settlements and kill unarmed Palestinian civilians.

Chances are pretty high, I'd say, that "terrorist" correctly identifies those Israelis. Israeli terrorism against Palestinians is a real and significant problem in Israel, at last check.

ETA: Just in case you were reacting to my assessment of Israelis attacking uniformed Hamas soldiers being unlikely to qualify as terrorists, the unlikely depends heavily on the uniformed Hamas soldiers part in practice, because that significantly affects the probability of available scenarios and identifies the Palestinian in question as a combatant, rather than a civilian, in what's currently a war.

7th October was Putin's birthday. So, if it wasn't coordinated, it's an amazing coincidence.

Given the birthday part, I'd offer that there's a 3rd option. That it was, at least in part, a "gift" to Putin. No "coordination" with Russia is necessary for such and "coincidence" is ill suited to describe such. Both are true even if Putin and co went the mob boss route and simply made it known that something like that happening would be desirable to them.

 

[Nessie]

My twitter feed has a split in support for Israel and Palestinians. The supporters of Israel are largely official, governmental and support for Palestinians is everyone else. There is a lot of condemnation of the use of violence from both sides, but sympathy for the plight of Palestinians is largely with the people, rather than the political elite, who favour Israel.

 

[Planigale]

Chances are pretty high, I'd say, that "terrorist" correctly identifies those Israelis. Israeli terrorism against Palestinians is a real and significant problem in Israel, at last check.

ETA: Just in case you were reacting to my assessment of Israelis attacking uniformed Hamas soldiers being unlikely to qualify as terrorists, the unlikely depends heavily on the uniformed Hamas soldiers part in practice, because that significantly affects the probability of available scenarios and identifies the Palestinian in question as a combatant, rather than a civilian, in what's currently a war.



Given the birthday part, I'd offer that there's a 3rd option. That it was, at least in part, a "gift" to Putin. No "coordination" with Russia is necessary for such and "coincidence" is ill suited to describe such. Both are true even if Putin and co went the mob boss route and simply made it known that something like that happening would be desirable to them.

I thought your previous response entirely reasonable. Sometimes I ask questions I do not kow the answer to.

I do believe that the creation of 'illegal combatants' is deliberately distorting the Geneva conventions. I think there is a dichotomous split between combatants and non-combatants. Nazis were convicted for executing and torturing resistance fighters in WW2. Nazis regarded uniformed special forces as illegal combatants and executed them.

Certainly videos of Hamas fighters (admittedly from Hamas) shows them in uniform, I would argue that they should be treated as combatants and protected under the Geneva convention. If the Hamas combatants committed war crimes then they should be tried before an appropriate court e.g. ICC. What they should not be subject to is extra-judicial execution which appears to be current IDF policy.

 

[Ziggurat]

It is, but what did this 60+ year war cost so far?

Again, the money isn't really the issue.

And hey, the US has a lot of land and is invested in keeping Israel safe, it could accept the Palestinians?

No. That isn't realistic.

Of course this will never happen, but again, accepting that what happened to the Palestinians was unjust and that their descendants should have some form of recompense, at least on a level the displaced Jews you mentioned get from Israel would perhaps start a way to end this war.

Those displaced jews never got recompense.

Hamas is now getting justly punished for their atrocities against civilians. But in their, fully understandable, rage the IDF is committing atrocities against civilians. Individually not on the level that Hamas does, but on a far greater scale due to their disparity in firepower.
And the families of those victims will seek to avenge themselves down the line. Rinse and repeat

Cycles of violence don't generally end when people decide to be nice. The historical norm is for the cycle to end when one side is unambiguously victorious over the other. That hasn't happened yet.

 

[Planigale]

Again, the money isn't really the issue.



No. That isn't realistic.



Those displaced jews never got recompense.



Cycles of violence don't generally end when people decide to be nice. The historical norm is for the cycle to end when one side is unambiguously victorious over the other. That hasn't happened yet.

Not sure this is true. Whilst the war of 1812 was a victory for canada over the US it was not unambiguous. Whilst the canadians required the US to end slavery the US were slow in doing so.

The Good Friday agreement in NI did not involve an unambiguous victory. Nor did the various agreements in ex-Yugoslavia. Relative peace In south africa and Zimbabwe were achieved without unambiguous victories,

 

[William Parcher]

The Israel-Hamas war reveals how social media sells you the illusion of reality.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/14/tech/social-media-misinformation-israel-hamas

 

[Nessie]

.....


Cycles of violence don't generally end when people decide to be nice. The historical norm is for the cycle to end when one side is unambiguously victorious over the other. That hasn't happened yet.

If Israel does destroy Hamas, but it then continues its repression of the Palestinian people, a new organisation will rise to fight back. The cycle will not end with a victory over Hamas.

 

[Planigale]

The Israel-Hamas war reveals how social media sells you the illusion of reality.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/14/tech/social-media-misinformation-israel-hamas

Not helped by the Israeli PM and the POTUS putting out false information (beheaded babies).

 

[Aridas]

Given the birthday part, I'd offer that there's a 3rd option. That it was, at least in part, a "gift" to Putin. No "coordination" with Russia is necessary for such and "coincidence" is ill suited to describe such. Both are true even if Putin and co went the mob boss route and simply made it known that something like that happening would be desirable to them.

Mmm. The chances for coincidence and gift just took a bit of a hit, I think.

Hamas received millions of dollars through cryptocurrency exchange with office in Moscow City - The Wall Street Journal

The Palestinian Jihad group allegedly received more than $93 million dollars through digital wallets on the eve of its attack on Israel. Hamas also used a similar funding scheme.

WSJ, citing data from the analytical company Elliptic, states that the attack on Israel was partially financed through the popular crypto exchange Garantex, registered in Moscow.

This description doesn't say that the Russians, specifically, were the ones transferring, of course. It is more than a little shady, though.

 

[Planigale]

An interesting view from one of the survivors of the hamas attack on the Kibbutz. Well worth watching, in Hebrew with English translation.

https://twitter.com/OrlyBarlevEng/status/1713166804896317799

Essentially she blames the Israeli government for substituting a military solution for a political one.

 

[lionking]

If Israel does destroy Hamas, but it then continues its repression of the Palestinian people, a new organisation will rise to fight back. The cycle will not end with a victory over Hamas.

Do you not think that destroying Hamas and its capacity to rain bombs on Israel is a good thing?

If not, I detect an antisemite.

 

[Planigale]

Do you not think that destroying Hamas and its capacity to rain bombs on Israel is a good thing?

If not, I detect an antisemite.

One way of doing that is politically. A political solution is likely to be more enduring than a military solution.*

To be pedantic Hamas would need an airforce to drop bombs, so it does not now nor is it likely to have the capacity to rain bombs.

Also to be pedantic Arabs are semites.

ETA
* A point made by the survivor of the Hamas massacre at the Kibbutz I linked to above.