Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[JoeMorgue]

Canada doesn't shoot up pizza parlors because a guy who sales boner pills on right wing radio said there was a child sex dungeon in the basement it didn't even have.

We aren't Canada. You keep saying the discussion is happening in the real world as an argument but it's happening in this country and you have to make a solution that will work here.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Canada doesn't shoot up pizza parlors because a guy who sales boner pills on right wing radio said there was a child sex dungeon in the basement it didn't even have.

We aren't Canada. You keep saying the discussion is happening in the real world as an argument but it's happening in this country and you have to make a solution that will work here.

Canada has mass shooters. They even have their own Qanon queen.

ETA: I'm not strictly talking about Canada either. Much of the conversation in this thread has focused on the UK, for example. I'm speaking about the issue broadly.

Do I take this to mean you see the Canadian system, with self-id, as an acceptable solution, even if only in the narrow context of Canada? Why or why not?

 

[theprestige]

Presumably they need to take a piss from time to time.

There's a sex-segregated restroom right there. If all they're trying to do is take a much-needed piss, that's a solved problem.

What's a transwoman (i.e., a male who claims "woman" as their gender identity), trying to do when faced with these sex-segregated spaces?

What is a transwoman trying to do, when faced with sex-segregated prisons?

What is a transwoman trying to do, when faced with sex-segregated sports?

What do you think public policy about sex-segregated spaces should do, in each of those scenarios, when faced with a transwoman?

 

[Trausti]

it's really a bad policy that people are allowed to be sex pests so long as they're in the right changing rooms. /s

I have only sons, no daughters. So I can only imagine the raw anger if my young daughter said a man stared at her as she undressed in a gym/pool changing room. Then to have an apologist say the violation of her body was acceptable so long as the autogynephillic man can have an affirmation boner.

 

[d4m10n]

"Passing" isn't even a concept that applies to my world view because it's meaningless.

Do you sincerely believe someone like Jazz Jennings (who passes for female and never experienced male puberty) is going to cause the same level of question- and eyebrow-raising in a public restroom or changing room as someone like Agee Merager (who is quite obviously male)? Justice may be blind but we aren't.

There's a sex-segregated restroom right there. If all they're trying to do is take a much-needed piss, that's a solved problem.

Assuming you want people who convincingly pass as men to enter the women's room, yes, it's a solved problem. Might cause some trouble on the ground, though.

 

[lionking]

Sometimes these disagreements are the fleeting conflicts common in childhood, sometimes they are the sources of bitter resentments that last well into adulthood.

Smart money says these mothers shouldn't expect much contact with their soon-to-be adult children.

In threads when posters make judgements on parents’ decisions about complex issues facing their underage children, I sometimes ask if the poster has children. While lived experience is not everything, it is also not nothing.

When a poster has not been in a position where they had to weigh up what is best in the long term interests of their children, their opinions of parents in this position can be discounted.

We made many decisions our children did not like at the time. Most now have children of their own. There is no resentment.

 

[theprestige]

Assuming you want people who convincingly pass as men to enter the women's room, yes, it's a solved problem. Might cause some trouble on the ground, though.

I have no idea what you mean, or what that assumption is supposed to accomplish.

 

[Trausti]

Ha, ha. Hooray for self-ID!

Men Overran a Job Fair for Women in Tech

Cullen White, AnitaB.org’s chief impact officer, said in a video posted to X, formerly Twitter, that some registrants had lied about their gender identity when signing up, and men were now taking up space and time with recruiters that should go to women.

 

[Trausti]

n/a

 

[d4m10n]

I have no idea what you mean, or what that assumption is supposed to accomplish.

Buck Angel would cause quite a stir in the ladies, bro.

Strict sex-segregation makes significantly less sense in light of folks like him, since that policy would put everyday women more on edge than no policy at all.

 

[TomB]

Ok, but do you not find the privacy concerns for trans people at all compelling?

Sex segregation basically requires trans people to out themselves as trans any time they enter a segregated space.

If it's OK to be trans, then being "outed" should not be a bad thing.

A masculine looking trans man entering a women's restroom, because the law demands it, is basically going to be thrust into the position of having to explain this intimate private fact about themselves to reasonably alarmed strangers quite frequently.

This is a better point assuming the person appears as convincingly male as your hypothetical. Most don't.

And also, the men's room has a different dynamic than the women's room.

Or they can just risk using the men's room and hope (perhaps correctly) that nobody is going to take notice of another dude looking person going into a bathroom stall and going about their business.

Again, different dynamic. Men are, in general, less concerned about privacy. It's not a symmetrical situation. On paper it is, but in practice it's not.

There's a very practical question here. Facing a sex segregated space, what should a trans person do?

Sure. But you also have to consider the other practical question: Encountering an obvious male in the space for females, what is a girl to do?

If we were only talking about people who passed at a high level, there would be less issue.

 

[theprestige]

Buck Angel would cause quite a stir in the ladies, bro.

Strict sex-segregation makes significantly less sense in light of folks like him, since that policy would put everyday women more on edge than no policy at all.

Restrooms are the least of my concerns.

If we can get some agreement from TRAs on things like sports and prisons and equitable representation for women, I'm willing to concede mere restrooms as gray area governed by passing, the honor system, and charitable impulses.

That's the way it used to be, before autogynephiliacs and assorted scumbags exploited society's good will to ruin it all for everyone. If Buck Angel wanted to preserve the polite fiction that respects women's concerns about safety and privacy, where he caucuses with the men who pee standing up... Maybe he should have been a lot more vocal when scumbags like Jessica Yaniv and Lia Thomas were making their moves.

 

[theprestige]

If it's OK to be trans, then being "outed" should not be a bad thing.


This is a better point assuming the person appears as convincingly male as your hypothetical. Most don't.

And also, the men's room has a different dynamic than the women's room.

Again, different dynamic. Men are, in general, less concerned about privacy. It's not a symmetrical situation. On paper it is, but in practice it's not.

Sure. But you also have to consider the other practical question: Encountering an obvious male in the space for females, what is a girl to do?

If we were only talking about people who passed at a high level, there would be less issue.

The obvious solution to being gender queer is to stop persecuting people for their queer expressions of gender.

The obvious solution to wanting to transcend sex segregation is to say no, that's not happening.

 

[Matthew Best]

Judith Butler's work is generally well regarded.

The Judith Butler who equates incest with homosexuality?

”To the extent that there are forms of love that are prohibited or, at least, derealized by the norms established by the incest taboo, both homosexuality and incest qualify as such forms."

Also the Judith Butler who writes horribly. She's way worse than JK Rowling, for example.

“It is not necessary to figure parent-child incest as a unilateral impingement on the child by the parent, since whatever impingement takes place will also be registered within the sphere of fantasy. In fact, to understand the violation that incest can be*--and also to distinguish between those occasions of incest that are violation and those that are not--*it is unnecessary to figure the body of the child exclusively as a surface imposed upon from the outside.”

In other words, sometimes parent-child incest is OK.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If it's OK to be trans, then being "outed" should not be a bad thing.

It's ok to have an uncircumcised penis, but most would probably find it a bit invasive to have to explain their cock configuration to strangers as part of day to day life.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

In threads when posters make judgements on parents’ decisions about complex issues facing their underage children, I sometimes ask if the poster has children. While lived experience is not everything, it is also not nothing.

When a poster has not been in a position where they had to weigh up what is best in the long term interests of their children, their opinions of parents in this position can be discounted.

We made many decisions our children did not like at the time. Most now have children of their own. There is no resentment.

Surely you are also aware that this is also sometimes not the case. Permanent estrangement does happen, and it often seems to happen when parents dig in their heels about their regressive, bigoted views. Adults who don't talk to their parents anymore because they took hard-line racist, sexist, anti-gay, anti-trans etc stances through their childhood (and beyond) is not exactly uncommon.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's ok to have an uncircumcised penis, but most would probably find it a bit invasive to have to explain their cock configuration to strangers as part of day to day life.

If there was a social standard where we separated the uncircumcised penises from the circumcised penises and then one day a group of circumcised penises wanted to go into the uncircumcised penis room because they "identified" as circumcised you'd have a comparison.

As it stands you don't.

 

[Pixel42]

Adults who don't talk to their parents anymore because they took hard-line racist, sexist, anti-gay, anti-trans etc stances through their childhood (and beyond) is not exactly uncommon.

None of those involved acquiescing to hormonal or surgical interventions to the child's healthy body.

We need to wait and see how many adults end up not talking to their parents anymore because they allowed, or even encouraged, them to irreversibly mutilate their bodies when they were too immature to know their true nature or fully understand the consequences before we can tell if such comparisons are relevant.

 

[Ziggurat]

Surely you are also aware that this is also sometimes not the case.

I don't think anyone denies that. But that's not the question. Do we categorically deny parents authority over their children because a few parents misuse that authority? That's stupid. Especially since no substitute authority has any better track record of acting in the best interest of the child than parents do. And why would you expect them to? Nobody has more skin in the game than parents. There's a bloody good reason the basic family structure has continued through thousands of years of human social evolution. We have yet to improve upon it.

Playing the odds, I'd pick the parents over the school/government any day of the week. It should take specific, demonstrable and severe problems to ever substitute the authority of the latter for the former. The mere fact that a child wants to transition doesn't suffice.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I think one of the issues here is the "sample size" for lack of a better term is so small nobody is going believe any data we get from it.

I'll have to go googling but iirc the data as we have it doesn't suggest that "regret" for gender transitioning is something we have to worry about, but the sample size is really small and that's open to a lot of influence.