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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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JayUtah said:
Nor would it matter if they were. The trope that Americans don't get British humor is as stereotypical as ships always turning turtle and floating for hours. British humor has been consistently popular and normalized in the U.S. for at least 50 years.

No, it's a desperate ploy (identified by Mojo too) from Vixen to pretend she's the only one who can properly tell which parts of the joke article are factual and should be taken on the authority of Finnish satirists, and which are the joke parts. Sure, we all recognized it as a joke, but only Vixen can properly tell us what the true parts are.
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Only Vixen failed to identify it as a joke.
 
Vixen said:
Take the Titanic. It split in two, It took up to four hours to sink.

kaggle


Compare and contrast to the Estonia survival rate: 137 out of apx 1052. Half that of the Titanic, yet only 0.34% of its parts were missing. The pointy bit at the end, which is normally of no particular consequence, as it was not unusual for such a vessel to sail with the visor open.
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You have to be taking the piss here!!!
 
Vixen said:
How do you calculate the midpoint of a sea journey when you have unpredicatable variables such as wind and waves, together with the effects of listing and trim?


It is not hard ground where you can aim with confidence at an exact spot.
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So I just took a closer look at your calculations, and you say the midpoint is 113.5 nautical miles from the start. If you are saying that they were within 21 nautical miles, then you are good with an 18.5% tolerance range? That's ridiculously high for something with such 'military precision.' By the way, you would also want to term this as accuracy, not precision.
 
lobosrul5 said:
You have to be taking the piss here!!!
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It's highly unusual for a ro-ro ferry to be permitted to sail without its bow visor lowered, locked and it good repair. Björkmann may be alluding to the MS Saga Star, mentioned in the various reports as a comparison vessel. When the Saga Star's visor actuators were damaged, the visor was removed and the ship was allowed to sail without it temporarily. This is the only instance of which I'm aware.

The details are salient. MS Saga Star was half the tonnage of MS Estonia. The permit under which it was allowed to sail while its bow visor was being repaired required the route to be adjusted to keep the vessel in calm coastal waters, the vessel's speed to be limited to wakeless, and the schedule to depend on weather. Under no circumstances do ro-ro ferries sail their normal schedule and routes with the bow visor missing or raised.
 
Disbelief said:
So I just took a closer look at your calculations, and you say the midpoint is 113.5 nautical miles from the start. If you are saying that they were within 21 nautical miles, then you are good with an 18.5% tolerance range? That's ridiculously high for something with such 'military precision.' By the way, you would also want to term this as accuracy, not precision.
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If they had tried it again, would they have been exactly as inaccurate?
 
zooterkin said:
Er, what? The survivors were rescued. 94 passengers didn't die.
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After the MV Estonia sank, there were originally 250 survivors, of which 94 died from hypothermia awaiting rescue or from drowning, others later in hospital. If you recall, help was delayed from the Swedish side.

Had communications not been down, these people could have been saved.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Why would removing life saving equipment help the ship sink?
Rafts, boats and jackets were recovered.
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A whole pile of life vests and life rafts were found dumped washed up on the shores of a tiny fishing village in Dirham, Estonia, together with one of the EPIRB's mysteriously switched off and untuned.


Sure, the current moves flotsam along but all of this stuff all found together in one place (yet no bodies). Really?
 
Mojo said:
No, it would be a coincidence however probable it was, because there is no connection between the naming of the dogs and the naming of phiwum and his son. That's the definition of a coincidence; two things coinciding without an actual causal relationship. Some coincidences are pretty commonplace, some are unlikely. Generally people only take note of the unlikely ones, but that doesn't make rest not coincidences.
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Phiwum might think it a coincidence but it is more likely to be an amusing story than a real coincidence. As I don't know the full facts and he swears that the probability of the two names together are one in ten million, I conceded it to him, on the assumption the two names would be most unlikely as a pet's name.
 
Vixen said:
A whole pile of life vests and life rafts were found dumped washed up on the shores of a tiny fishing village in Dirham, Estonia, together with one of the EPIRB's mysteriously switched off and untuned.


Sure, the current moves flotsam along but all of this stuff all found together in one place (yet no bodies). Really?
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Yes, really.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
As far as I can wearily remember this whole flotsam thing goes back to one of the rescuing captains (from the Mariella perhaps?) remarking on his shock that the ship appeared to have sunk entirely. The remark was not about any suspicion regarding the number of rafts, lifeboats or vests left floating, it was about the shock of finding the ship had gone.

Now Vixen wishes to spin this into implying someone sabotaged life rafts and lifeboats. A dishonest fantasy built on absolutely nothing. Rejected.
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That would have been Makela, expecting to see the vessel hanging in the water, rather like the Jan Heweliusz.
 
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phiwum said:
So your claim is that the reason there's so little debris is that life saving equipment was removed?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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Well, the automatically-activated on immersion buoys were found to be switched off and found dumped together with a whole load of other life-saving stuff. I believe one EPIRB was caught by a fisherman, also switched off, despite having been checked by the ship's electricians as being set up and activated the week before.
 
JayUtah said:
It is a big deal when you're trying to be the teacher and pretend to correct everyone. That compels you to demonstrate you know what you're talking about.



No, it wasn't. You wrote a post that tried to make it sound like you were still somehow right while at the same time revising the number and units.



Which is still incorrect. The recovered section weighed just over 64 tonnes.

But all that is only marginally relevant to the point you were trying to make, which was that in your expert engineering estimation, such a chunk of the ship falling off, striking the bulbous bow, and being pushed aside by the ship's headway, can't explain the witness testimony.

I say it does.
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I can only imagine it is some kind of an estimated weight, what with the bolts and screws missing. As you know, the Atlantic lock was simply chucked back into the water, yet it is supposedly key to the bow visor dropping off.
 
Vixen said:
Well, the automatically-activated on immersion buoys were found to be switched off and found dumped together with a whole load of other life-saving stuff. I believe one EPIRB was caught by a fisherman, also switched off, despite having been checked by the ship's electricians as being set up and activated the week before.
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Oh, goodie, another ten pages of trying to get you to acknowledge well established fact.
 
Vixen said:
If you recall, help was delayed from the Swedish side.
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It's impossible not to notice how you try to make the delay by the Finns in notifying the Swedes sound as if it's somehow Sweden's fault.

It's a handy reminder of what an honest and unbiased reporter of facts you aren't.
 
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