Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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Vixen said:
Caesium, for example, is worth something like €40,000 per kilogram, on the black market...
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137Cs is a radioactive waste material. You can't sell it on any market of any color. In fact, you have to pay people quite a lot of money to safely take it off your hands. What you're talking about is the various chlorides and oxides of cesium that are difficult to mine, are not radioactive, do not spontaneously combust, and are indeed worth quite a bit of money.

Uranium is not especially rare where I live. Come to any of our national parks in the southern part of the state and we won't be able to hike for more than half an hour before I'll have been able to show you some yellowish uranium ore just laying about. There's no point to smuggling bits of it from Russia.

You just don't know what any of these names mean and you're using them and their isotope numbers interchangeably. Facts matter.
 
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JayUtah said:
Yes, an error that indicates you don't know what you're talking about. So we have no reason to take you as any sort of authority on what is supposedly being smuggled.
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Here is a list of what was being smuggled in 1994.

https://irp.fas.org/cia/product/go_appendixa_032796.html

We discussed this before, the salient point being, the JAIC never troubled itself to discover what was being transported in the cargo hold, something that one might have thought was relevant to a sudden accident.

Serious organized crime is the source of a lot of violent conflict between rival gangs and even the state.
 
Vixen said:
Here is a list of what was being smuggled in 1994.
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All of it on MS Estonia that night? The allegations of actual smuggling aboard MS Estonia where investigated and reported in a report from which you cherry-pick only what you want to hear.

We discussed this before, the salient point being, the JAIC never troubled itself to discover what was being transported in the cargo hold...
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No, the salient point is that—on the basis of a joke site—you claimed that 137Cs was being smuggled in a truck on the car deck that night, that it must have spontaneously ignited and caused a fire that compelled the crew to open the car ramp to the sea.

No other material in your irrelevant laundry list works for your theory.

137Cs does not occur in, nor is transported in, its elemental form. Only the elemental form spontaneously ignites in air. You didn't know this.

The JAIC did investigate the allegations of smuggling for which there was evidence. It properly did not investigate bonkers theories from joke sites intended to make people laugh and poke fun at conspiracy theories.
 
JayUtah said:
All of it on MS Estonia that night? The allegations of actual smuggling aboard MS Estonia where investigated and reported in a report from which you cherry-pick only what you want to hear.



No, the salient point is that—on the basis of a joke site—you claimed that 137Cs was being smuggled in a truck on the car deck that night, that it must have spontaneously ignited and caused a fire that compelled the crew to open the car ramp to the sea.

No other material in your irrelevant laundry list works for your theory.

137Cs does not occur in, nor is transported in, its elemental form. Only the elemental form spontaneously ignites in air. You didn't know this.

The JAIC did investigate the allegations of smuggling for which there was evidence. It properly did not investigate bonkers theories from joke sites intended to make people laugh and poke fun at conspiracy theories.
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The JAIC did NOT investigate what was in the cargo. It states that it was only interested in whether the vehicles in the car deck were properly pitched down.
 
Word from Margus Kurm, the person who led an independent expedition the same time as Arikas. He does not believe the latest theory and is quoted as follows:

For many years, Margus Kurm has held various positions related to the investigation of the wreck of Estonia. An experienced lawyer, he dismisses the latest TalTech study because its source data is incomplete. "A ship cannot start sinking at 133 degrees. This ship first turned around [capsized?] and only then began to sink. There is an important difference whether to so-called model a situation where the ship sinks in front of the seabed or sinks in front of the seabed chimneys [outcrops?]. Accordingly, since the assumptions do not correspond to reality, the study does not provide much knowledge," said Kurm.

According to Kurm, all planned work has already been done. In the years 2005-2008 two different scientific consortia worked on the modeling of the crash. The conclusions reached were different. Estonians now chose one of them as a basis, the conclusions of the second study were not taken into account. "TalTech or the safety investigation center, which commissioned this study, chose one study as a starting point and left the other study completely aside. Whereas this second study, which claims that the ship turned over before sinking in any case, was significantly more comprehensive - computer simulations were performed there, tests were also carried out with the four-meter Estonia model in a special pool, and therefore, since these studies were more comprehensive, I dare to think, that their results or conclusions are also more adequate," said Kurm.
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https://www.tv3.ee/3-portaal/paevak...b-taltechi-teadlaste-viimast-uuringut-ei-usu/

30.9.2023
 
Vixen said:
The JAIC did NOT investigate what was in the cargo. It states that it was only interested in whether the vehicles in the car deck were properly pitched down.
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None of that fixes your problem of not realizing you were quoting a joke and presenting it as real. You need new straw man.
 
Vixen said:
The JAIC did NOT investigate what was in the cargo. It states that it was only interested in whether the vehicles in the car deck were properly pitched down.
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A fire started by Cesium or whatever is not a collision. You just spent pages harping on about a collision. VIxen: pick one, was the Estonia sunk by a collision or a fire? I hope you have some idea how ridiculous it is that you go back and forth between mutually exclusive theories.
 
JayUtah said:
None of that fixes your problem of not realizing you were quoting a joke and presenting it as real. You need new straw man.
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Whilst it has a satirical tone, it is based on real theories going around at the time. Given the cargo was not investigated by the JAIC and Harri Ruotsalainen, a member of Estonia government's working party believes the car ramp was indeed opened by crew to dump a couple of trucks, it is not at all a joke.

https://hikipedia.info/wiki/M/S_Estonia

Ruotsalainen believes the concrete idea was to cover the trucks, not the ship.
 
Vixen said:
Whilst it has a satirical tone, it is based on real theories going around at the time. Given the cargo was not investigated by the JAIC and Harri Ruotsalainen, a member of Estonia government's working party believes the car ramp was indeed opened by crew to dump a couple of trucks, it is not at all a joke.

https://hikipedia.info/wiki/M/S_Estonia

Ruotsalainen believes the concrete idea was to cover the trucks, not the ship.
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....dear fsm.

 
lobosrul5 said:
A fire started by Cesium or whatever is not a collision. You just spent pages harping on about a collision. VIxen: pick one, was the Estonia sunk by a collision or a fire? I hope you have some idea how ridiculous it is that you go back and forth between mutually exclusive theories.
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As I keep saying, it is a current affairs news item and these are the theories put forward by respectable spokespersons.

As I said before, a sabotage can have more than one form of attack.

The JAIC stuck to the first day narrative of 'the bow visor fell off' with a detailed description and computer simulations, but it never investigated issues brought up by the survivors, the communications blackout, the removal of the EPIRB's, the timing and the location, nor the claims of military cargo being loaded.

All this points to 'classified'.
 
Vixen said:
As I keep saying, it is a current affairs news item and these are the theories put forward by respectable spokespersons.

As I said before, a sabotage can have more than one form of attack.

The JAIC stuck to the first day narrative of 'the bow visor fell off' with a detailed description and computer simulations, but it never investigated issues brought up by the survivors, the communications blackout, the removal of the EPIRB's, the timing and the location, nor the claims of military cargo being loaded.

All this points to 'classified'.
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Absurd.
 
JayUtah said:
Yes, Kurm has been a conspiracy theorist from Day One. I do not expect him to suddenly change.
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Kurm was involved from Day One. He knows a lot more about it than you or I.

Andy Meister, who was the Estonian Member of the JAIC and who quit, alleges he saw the pilot logbooks that listed the Estonian crew as survivors. Meister claims that the Estonians were completely blocked out by the Swedes, despite the ship being part owned by the Estonia state, under its flag and crew, and with 300 Estonian victims. Given the small population of Estonia, proportionately, it lost the equivalent of 3,000 citizens as compared to Sweden's, pro rata per head of population. Comparisons are odious but the point being made is why was Sweden the dominant member of the JAIC, doing the subcontracting and keeping certain dives top secret from them. I don't know, but it is a reasonable question for Kurm to ask.
 
Vixen said:
Kurm was involved from Day One. He knows a lot more about it than you or I.
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Than you, certainly. Than me, certainly not. Forensic engineering is part of my licensed professional qualifications. He doesn't have those, which is why he proposes such ludicrous things as collisions with a submarine.
 
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