Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Delphic Oracle]

There was a waypoint when the ship changed direction. The wind also changed course slighty during the night. Wind gusts, in addition, tend to have circular movement if you have ever noticed trees swaying back and forth.

Oh wow.

So the trees have no elasticity?

FFS nearly everything in existence, when disturbed from equilibrium with less force than that which would cause damage or permanent disruption of said equilibrium, will proceed through a period of oscillations around its natural point of rest...

 

[JayUtah]

With the casing it weighs 55 tonnes.

It was weighed onshore at around 64 tonnes, or about the displacement of a small-to-medium-sized fishing vessel. Are you still insinuating that a ship contacting a mass like this would be inconsequential?

 

[JayUtah]

It is a good job I don't believe in 'coincidence' or 'conspiracy theory'.

You are literally arguing a conspiracy theory based on establishing noteworthy coincidences.

 

[JayUtah]

As Capt. Makela said, it was a normal blustery September storm, wind speed 18 m/s. Around here it often goes up to 24 m/s and that is when a storm warning goes out.

That doesn't address the rebuttal in my post. Try again.

 

[Vixen]

Can you describe this "casing" that was provided for the visor, say what it's purpose was, and explain why it weighed over 3,500 times as much as you claimed the visor itself weighed?

The bow visor consists of the steel plates and stiffeners, three tiers of horizontal girders in support on the upper deck and a bottom horizontal support girder and some vertical web frames. Total weight 55 tonnes. The vessel is 15,543 tonnes sans bow visor. Or, in other words, the bow visor was 0.35% of the total weight of the entire vessel. Nought point three-five percent of the whole ship.

 

[JayUtah]

It might be evidence but it can hardly be a conclusion the very same morning.

It wasn't. And you avoided the distinction I made between evidence and inference, which is the main problem with your interpretation of the witness evidence. Please correct that defect in your response.

 

[JayUtah]

It doesn't really change the location of the midway point as that was a range between 15nm to 21nm, so doesn't fall out with that to any significant degree.

At what significance does it cease to be "military precision" and how do you know that?

 

[JayUtah]

Total weight 55 tonnes. The vessel is 15,543 tonnes sans bow visor.

No. Go look up what gross tonnage is and report back.

Or, in other words, the bow visor was 0.35% of the total weight of the entire vessel. Nought point three-five percent of the whole ship.

What is your point?

 

[Vixen]

Yet you push conspiracy theories regularly, the more outlandish the better.

Unless you want to finally admit that the ship wasn't hit by a submarine, and that nuclear waste cannot have melted the bow visor locks?

You cannot tell the difference between my reporting current affairs - (the issue of the submarine is a theory by a couple of eminent persons [physics professors and a state prosecutor]and also one eyewitness, who believes he saw it sliding away [this guy is a diplomat]) and nuclear waste is indeed a recognised problem - and conspiracy theory. Caesium, for example, is worth something like €40,000 per kilogram, on the black market; look up the prices of other leftover material from the decommissioned nuclear base at Paldiski, such as Uranium 137 and maybe you can understand why these items were being smuggled in black market Estonia.

Likewise, smuggled materials being waved through customs at Stockholm, coming off the ferry MV Estonia, is not my theory, this is an actual news item.

Learn to differentiate news items and current affairs from abstract issues.

 

[JayUtah]

You cannot tell the difference between my reporting current affairs...

You are not reporting current affairs. You are arguing a panoply of outrageous and incompatible conspiracy theories, which you were good enough to summarize for us in the rest of your post.

 

[Vixen]

No. Go look up what gross tonnage is and report back.



What is your point?

The idea that the 'collision'-type sensations of several of the witnesses were caused by the bow visor dropping off is nonsense as the bow visor having dropped off will immediately sink. It really didn't hang around to bully the hull.

 

[JayUtah]

Uranium 137

You mean cesium 137. You've gone from osmium to cesium to uranium. You don't know what you're talking about, and it seems like you're just making all this up as you go.

 

[GlennB]

You mean cesium 137. You've gone from osmium to cesium to uranium. You don't know what you're talking about, and it seems like you're just making all this up as you go.

Vixen explicitly differentiates between caesium and uranium in that post. What a mess of random ignorance.

 

[Vixen]

You mean cesium 137. You've gone from osmium to cesium to uranium. You don't know what you're talking about, and it seems like you're just making all this up as you go.

Er, there is more than one type of rare metal.

Your logic appears to be of the type that "drug smugglers can only smuggle one type of drug".

No, a smuggler will smuggle whatever he can make a handsome profit from.

In Estonia at the time the smuggling was in the leftover materials of the ex-USSR Paldiski base which included the dismantling of nuclear reactors.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen explicitly differentiates between Caesium and Uranium in that post. What a mess of random ignorance.

The ignorance is yours as you appear not to know of the smuggling that was going on.

 

[JayUtah]

The idea that the 'collision'-type sensations of several of the witnesses...

No. You can't provide a single witness to a collision. This morning I took the time to look up how the witness reports were placed into a timeline.

First you had people who heard or felt a repetitive banging. Then you had witnesses who heard a scraping or grinding. Then much later you had witnesses experiencing roll instability, which is responsible for the people being thrown off their feet or objects falling off shelves. Then finally you had a sudden deceleration. This was all over the course of several minutes.

This testimony is consistent with the bow visor coming loose, falling off, scraping alongside the hull; with the ship taking on water and rolling excessively to the free surface effect, and the ship finally taking a wave head-on with the blunt car ramp.

as the bow visor having dropped off will immediately sink.

No it won't, and you're not competent to determine whether it will or not.

It really didn't hang around to bully the hull.

Except it did, and that's what the witnesses heard as bumping and grinding.

 

[JayUtah]

Er, there is more than one type of rare metal.

But you don't know the proper names or isotope numbers of the ones you're trying read into your conspiracy theory. There is no such thing as ¹³⁷U.

Your logic appears to be of the type that "drug smugglers can only smuggle one type of drug".

No, my logic is, "You're making up stuff that you know nothing about and pretending it forms a coherent alternative theory."

 

[GlennB]

The ignorance is yours as you appear not to know of the smuggling that was going on.

I'm talking about your reference to Uranium 137. There is no such thing.

 

[Vixen]

No. You can't provide a single witness to a collision. This morning I took the time to look up how the witness reports were placed into a timeline.

First you had people who heard or felt a repetitive banging. Then you had witnesses who heard a scraping or grinding. Then much later you had witnesses experiencing roll instability, which is responsible for the people being thrown off their feet or objects falling off shelves. Then finally you had a sudden deceleration. This was all over the course of several minutes.

This testimony is consistent with the bow visor coming loose, falling off, scraping alongside the hull; with the ship taking on water and rolling excessively to the free surface effect, and the ship finally taking a wave head-on with the blunt car ramp.



No it won't, and you're not competent to determine whether it will or not.



Except it did, and that's what the witnesses heard as bumping and grinding.

May I have the citation, please? If you are referring to the JAIC Report, that was written by the JAIC psychologist who summarised the experience of a handful of survivors into his own words.

 

[Vixen]

I'm talking about your reference to Uranium 137. There is no such thing.

So you spotted an error.

Caesium-137 (137
55Cs
), cesium-137 (US),[7] or radiocaesium, is a radioactive isotope of caesium that is formed as one of the more common fission products by the nuclear fission of uranium-235 and other fissionable isotopes in nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons.

wiki