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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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zooterkin said:
is 157 mph. :dl:
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Well.
It is always said that the Estonia was driven at a too large a speed for the sea condition it was in. Kind of Vixen to finally acknowledge that. 😇

It’s the true accountants flair of feeling for numbers that is at work here, you know.
 
jeezus- at 157mph, anything but a dead calm mirror surface would be lethal...

(and can you imagine getting a RORO ferry up to those speeds- what kind of engines would it need???)
:jaw-dropp

(a RORO doing half the water speed record....)
1024px-Spirit-of-Australia.jpg

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Australia#/media/File:Spirit_of_Australia.jpg
(resized and link added to original due to size blowout...)
 
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Vixen said:
If MV Estonia had been travelling since 19:15 then by 1:48 (six hours and 33 minutes, or 6.55 hrs) when it went off the radar, it had travelled roughly 193 km which meant it was travelling an average of 18 knots, ergo, it will have travelled 119 miles*/.868976 [miles to knots conversion] = 137 knots over 6.55 hours = an average speed of 20.91 knots per hour. Its capability was only circa 20 knots at full speed, so must have been carried along by the waves - southwesterly, similar to the wind.
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Jack by the hedge said:
A few points raised by your calculations:
Where did you get the initial figure of 193km from?
You then converted that to 119 miles. (I get 120 but let's not quibble.)
You then converted that wrongly to 137 nautical miles. It's 104 nm. You applied the multiplier backwards.
Also 'knots' is nautical miles per hour, not nautical miles. You meant nm.
So now you have two different answers for the same calculation: 18 knots or 20.91 knots. (Not 'knots per hour'.) So your results are contradictory. That should have been a clue you had blundered. I wonder that you didn't spot this.
A southwesterly wind is one which blows from the southwest, not toward the southwest.
If you ever read the JAIC report you would discover section 5.4 describing the wind and wave conditions in considerable detail. https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt05.html#4
And you would see that section 5.5 has considerable detail on the Estonia's speed too. https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt05.html#5

Have you been letting AI do your calculations again? You appreciate they produce plausible-looking nonsense, right?
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Vixen said:
It is a very simple calculation and doesn't need any aide to do it. MV Estonia was 6.55hrs into its journey. If its average speed was (according to JAIC iirc) 18knots, then 18knots x 6.55 hours = 117 nautical miles = 135.67 miles or, 218 km.

One knot equals one nautical mile per hour, or roughly 1.15 statute mph.

The wind was indeed southwesterly - coming from the south west and wave action will affect how far it actually travelled, that is why we can only estimate how fast it was going.

Clear now?
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Yes. But not in the way you want it to be.
 
phiwum said:
I don't care for all the time spent trying to convince you to admit trivial errors. I think it's pointless and mean spirited.

However, any sympathy I might have diminishes when you mislead like this. The above is a quote from King Lear, but it's not what you wrote. You wrote, "There hath been many a true word spoken in jest."

Just admit a minor misquote and move on to making more important errors regarding the sinking of the Estonia.
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But neither version appears anywhere in Shakespeare's works.
 
Vixen said:
'Do you speak English' can be a variation of 'Do you understand'.
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You, or your 'old lag' cockney china, are clearly confused. 'Savvy' means to understand, among other related meanings. It is nothing to do with 'kemosabe'. Possibly your mucker was making a private joke by sticking 'kemo' on the front, but it's not common currency.
 
Axxman300 said:
No, you are claiming what is an obvious clerical error as fact.

It has become a cruel and pathetic lie, told by the small band of Estonia CT loons.

And please keep your conspiracies straight. Either the Russians sank it, the Swedes sank it, or the CIA sank it. You drift haphazardly from one to the other, mixing fantasies on a whim.

And tell me the name one person the CIA renditioned between 1990 and 2001. I'll wait.
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Obviously they all wanted to sink it.
 
Dabop said:
A car drives in circles (say about the size of a racetrack) for 20 mins at 60 miles an hour- doesn't end up 20 miles away from the racetrack...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fCbNgfWgRY

In fact, by using 'vixens patented speed calculator' system (measure the straight line distance from start to finish and divide (or possibly multiply, depending on which way the wind is blowing, if the sun is up or down, or just at random) the time taken- those cars never moved at all!!! (one lap = distance around the course from start line to finish line- so measure the straightline distance from the two lines- um zero, so speed = zero...)

It makes about as much sense as her mess LOL
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Which is why the speed of a ship through the water is no indication of its speed over the ground. If it was all that tedious messing around with position fixes colour be got rid of.

Before anyone (no names) jumps in to say it's at sea not on the ground. Yes, that is the correct term for the sea bed in this instance.
 
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Same with planes and their air speed (I occasionally fly a little 172)- the airspeed has no correlation to the ground speed (in fact in strong enough winds, a 172 can 'take off' without even having the engine running) - hence the need for 'tiedowns' when parked- it's actually rather funny watching an improperly tied down Cessna 'hovering' in wind speeds of about 80-100 kmh- at those wind speeds if the tiedowns are slack- its wheels can literally leave the ground and it sits there 'in mid air'
:-O
 
JayUtah said:
Elemental cesium—including its isotopes—ignites spontaneously in contact with air. Vixen suggests this reaction caused a fire that purportedly set off the ship's fire alarm. The fire-alarm portion of this claim has been addressed thoroughly and repeatedly. The chemistry claim is easily addressed: cesium's high reactivity ensures that 137Cs is almost never found in its elemental state.
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Well then, perhaps the ship's bows were dissolved by all the fluorine that European countries have been adding to their water.
 
Vixen said:
No she wasn't. The wind despite being southwesterly was more westerly than south. More SWW. This was helping her along not against her.
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Like the old Cary Grant movie South by West West.

Vixen what approximate heading do you think the Estonia was on when it got into trouble? My recollection is approximately west northwest. Do you agree? And how would a wind blowing from the west southwest have 'helped it along'?
 
Vixen said:
Can I just lean in to clarify that cockney rhyming slang and also backslang, wasn't there so that they could look cute like Del Boy & Rodney, the whole point was an underworld language developed by 'villains' and prison inmates paranoid that people might understand what they were plotting. So actually, it was inventive and not just restricted to terms such as 'up the apples and pears' and 'down the rub-a-dub-dub'. There is a good scene in Vinnie Jones' 'Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels" entirely in this mode and only the villains in the pub understand what they are talking about.



This puts to bed Mark_Corrigan's claim that he is the arbiter of what Cockney slang is.
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What you have in that video is a film scene written in a style to seem like someone talking in Cockney rhyming slang. There's far too much plain English for this to be misunderstood. But just for clarity, here's a list of all the Cockney rhyming slang used and how it works.

Roger – Roger Mellie = Telly (Television)
Iron Rusted = Busted (broken)
Battle cruiser = Boozer (pub)
Custard – Custard and Jelly = Telly (Television)
North – North and South = Mouth
Liza – Liza Minelli = Telly (Television)
Claret – Not actually cockney rhyming slang, just the colour of blood
Jam rolls = ***holes
Aristotle = Bottle
Ping pong = Strong
Tiddly – Tiddly wink = Drink
Sub = Pub
Bird’s Nest = Chest

You'll notice that every single phrase in the clip used rhymes (sometimes in the long form) with the actual word meant. That's how Cockney Rhyming slang works. That's why it's called Cockney rhyming slang.

Explain to me the rhyme for Kimo Sabi.
 
phiwum said:
What would that prove? Surely anyone can google it. Besides, quoting Shakespeare without knowing the act and scene isn't really a failing.
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But the "many a true word spoken in jest" line, however you word it, is not in King Lear. There's a line about jesters, spoken by Regan with a similar meaning, as posted above.
Jesters do oft prove prophets. (Regan to Albany in an argument where he suggests she might marry Edmund)
The point is that the well-known version of the aphorism is not the Shakespeare version, although a quick google will show you attributions claiming it is. It's not a big deal that Vixen attributed it to Shakespeare and maybe even a nitpick to point that out, but in the context of this thread the fact that Vixen doubled down and insisted it was Shakespeare is illustrative.
 
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Vixen said:
You don't even know when someone knows better than you. So arrogant and yet so ignorant. Not a laudible combination.

"Shut gob, pin back lug'oles and put t'brain in gear' ~ Yorkshire homily.
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You don't know what a homily is, either.
 
Vixen said:
I can confirm Kemo sabe was cockney slang for "understand". Actually, it should read Kimo Sabe.

What point are you making, Caller, and what does it have to do with this thread?
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No, it isn't. You're wrong vixen.
 
wollery said:
What you have in that video is a film scene written in a style to seem like someone talking in Cockney rhyming slang. There's far too much plain English for this to be misunderstood. But just for clarity, here's a list of all the Cockney rhyming slang used and how it works.

Roger – Roger Mellie = Telly (Television)
Iron Rusted = Busted (broken)
Battle cruiser = Boozer (pub)
Custard – Custard and Jelly = Telly (Television)
North – North and South = Mouth
Liza – Liza Minelli = Telly (Television)
Claret – Not actually cockney rhyming slang, just the colour of blood
Jam rolls = ***holes
Aristotle = Bottle
Ping pong = Strong
Tiddly – Tiddly wink = Drink
Sub = Pub
Bird’s Nest = Chest

You'll notice that every single phrase in the clip used rhymes (sometimes in the long form) with the actual word meant. That's how Cockney Rhyming slang works. That's why it's called Cockney rhyming slang.

Explain to me the rhyme for Kimo Sabi.
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Roger Mellie isn't even that old. He's a foul mouthed TV presenter in Viz comic.
 
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