Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Vixen]

Combined with the speed Estonia was sailing, and the fact she was sailing into the wind, the waves were breaking over the bow. It's not hype, they were sailing too fast into a storm the ship was never designed to survive in the first place. Without the storm, the ship doesn't sink. It's that easy.

All the other ships, the ones who came to rescue survivors, were sailing at reduced speeds because their captains weren't reckless. And the storm is on video. And I pointed out that the area where the Estonia sank is prime for rogue waves, thanks to the benthic topography. Combine that with the fetch, and it was a perfect mix. A single wave in the right conditions, striking the one ship not designed to travel in the open ocean.

This was an accident waiting to happen, not a conspiracy.

No she wasn't. The wind despite being southwesterly was more westerly than south. More SWW. This was helping her along not against her.

 

[JayUtah]

Irrelevant, Vixen didn't originally give that quote.

Maybe she didn't mean William Shakespeare. Maybe she meant her childhood friend Monty Shakespeare, who also wrote plays and named one Kink, Leer. I'm sure she just heard the name wrong.

 

[Vixen]

In that weather? Yes.

In the US military there are some MOSs whose jobs don't change much between peacetime action and combat. That's why you rarely see USAF PJs get the CMOH, even though many truly deserve it (see: Mogadishu, Robert's Ridge, Afghanistan). In fact, PJs have only been awarded 1 CMOH, and 105 Silver Stars since their inception, which feels like a huge injustice.

The obsession over the rescue team's medals is just weird.

It's more a concern as to what happened to the nine Estonians, mostly very senior crew, who were initially listed as survivors together with Piht, who was definitely spoken of in the respectable press as being alive and available for interviewing.

Could the nine people Svensson is said to have brought to Stockholm at about two in the morning, and hailed a hero in the early Swedish papers be the real subjects of the heroic 'Operation'? So they were renditioned by he CIA as enemies of the state, lined up against a wall and executed.

 

[GlennB]

Irrelevant, Vixen didn't originally give that quote.

The relevant quote seems to be:

REGAN

Jesters do oft prove prophets.

 

[Vixen]

If it was a submarine that did it, who shot the captain and why?

When the devices detonated at Swedish midnight, perhaps the ship swerved into the escorting submarine and was thus pranged.


The JAIC never dealt with the eye witness reports of a collision of some sort.

 

[Vixen]

Didn't you know Nelson fired chain at his enemy's masts after going yardarm to yardarm... you know... just to be sure, ergo whoever sunk the Estonia did so by bribing/blackmailing/murdering the crew, blowing a hole in the side of the ship with C4, melting the front hatch with cesium, starting a fire, torpedoing the ship, and then ramming it with a surfaced submarine.

They were very thorough, and experienced black ops operators. They made sure marine radio was jammed (except it wasn't) but a cellphone call could be made for plausible deniability. They carried this out at exactly midnight, because thats what the best of the best does! Military precision baby.

Don't worry, the crew seemed to be well away!

 

[Vixen]

In her rush to tie everyone up in knots (pun intended) over irrelevancies, Vixen forgot what we were talking about. SS Edmund Fitzgerald foundered simply because the seas were too rough for her in her condition, and sank so quickly that Capt. McSorley—who had been making regular and incidental radio reports to his colleague in command of SS Arthur Anderson—couldn't get off a single word of alarm. Despite Vixen's lay belief, ships can in fact sink very quickly.

Yes of course, once they are split in half. But the JAIC claimed the Estonia was intact apart from the bow visor.

 

[JayUtah]

Yes of course, once they are split in half. But the JAIC claimed the Estonia was intact apart from the bow visor.

The ship was not intact. It’s bow visor was missing.

 

[Vixen]

No, that's not the point. The point is that you claimed that nuclear waste was being smuggled on board MS Estonia, and that a reaction from this waste either started a fire or melted a portion of the ship. You cited a parody of Wikipedia as your source, not realizing it was intended as a joke claim.

The question now is whether you will admit your error and retract your claim, or pay any kind of attention to the thorough refutation of the claim that has been offered.

The fire alarms were going off and the stern ramp was ajar for a reason.

 

[JayUtah]

The fire alarms were going off and the stern ramp was ajar for a reason.

Your proposal for that “some reason” was based on your ignorance of chemistry and your subsequent inability to tell that your source was joking.

 

[Vixen]

Nope. Cockney rhyming slang doesn't work like that.

In the unlikely event that a Cockney wanted rhyming slang for 'understand?' then it might go like this -

understand? ... band (the rhyme) ... marching band (the phrase containing the rhyme) ... marching? (the abbreviated form a Cockney would use)

Try: quién no sabe?


See the play on words? Cockneys are bloody witty bastards.

 

[JayUtah]

The JAIC never dealt with the eye witness reports of a collision of some sort.

There is no direct witness testimony to a collision. That is the interpretation offered by some witnesses. Since there was no physical evidence of a surface collision, and considerable physical evidence for a different interpretation of the witness testimony, the parsimonious conclusion was drawn. This is correct.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

There were 137 rescued alive and iirc something like 95 dead retrieved. So there were a lot of rescue teams all helping in the rescue, including the pilots.

The guy who rescued the other guy: where is his 'Victoria Cross'...?

What difference does it make?

It is not that hard to understand what set Svensson's actions apart from those of the other rescue men that day: he went above and beyond by taking over the rescue work on Y74 after its own rescue man got injured.

After what he had already gone through while on Y64, he could have spent the rest of the flight cocooned in warm blankets hooked up to an IV. Instead, he went back out and rescued six more people.

 

[Vixen]

The relevant quote seems to be:

REGAN

Jesters do oft prove prophets.

"“A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.”

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Nope. Cockney rhyming slang doesn't work like that.

In the unlikely event that a Cockney wanted rhyming slang for 'understand?' then it might go like this -

understand? ... band (the rhyme) ... marching band (the phrase containing the rhyme) ... marching? (the abbreviated form a Cockney would use)

I think you'll find that the whole "kemo sabe" thing was gone through in excruciating detail in one of the previous threads. Obviously it isn't rhyming slang, it's from an Algonquin dialect but for practical purposes it's from "The Lone Ranger" and on the rare occasion it's used in Britain it's used like "my friend" or "mate", it does have a reputation in popular culture for being used by people trying and failing to come across as clever, most famously by Del Boy in "Only Fools and Horses" but also by Dessie's spivish, wide-boy friend in the film adaption of "The Snapper" by Roddie Doyle (set in Ireland).

But this is irrelevant, because of course it's just a distraction.

 

[JayUtah]

"“A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.”

“It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”

—[the Scottish play], Act 5, Sc. 5

 

[Vixen]

I think you'll find that the whole "kemo sabe" thing was gone through in excruciating detail in one of the previous threads. Obviously it isn't rhyming slang, it's from an Algonquin dialect but for practical purposes it's from "The Lone Ranger" and on the rare occasion it's used in Britain it's used like "my friend" or "mate", it does have a reputation in popular culture for being used by people trying and failing to come across as clever, most famously by Del Boy in "Only Fools and Horses" but also by Dessie's spivish, wide-boy friend in the film adaption of "The Snapper" by Roddie Doyle (set in Ireland).

But this is irrelevant, because of course it's just a distraction.

Wait. Are you saying Del Boy and Dessie's wide boy friend also used the phrase? Whilst it is obviously a reference to the Lone Ranger, I am sceptical it has anything to do with 'an Algonquin dialect' as far as Del Boy from Peckham is concerned.

 

[Vixen]

“It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”

—[the Scottish play], Act 5, Sc. 5

William Faulkner.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Did you miss the bit where I said 'average speed, as estimated by the JAIC (iirc)'...?

Did you miss the bit where you were corrected on what the JAIC actually said in section 5.5 of its final report? ~18 knots was only the probable speed for the first few hours. JAIC estimates that the Estonia would have slowed significantly as the seas grew heavier, down to 15 knots or less.

But that doesn't matter to my point. 6.55 hours is the time all the way up to when Estonia vanished beneath the waves. The ship wouldn't have been maintaining any significant speed for a good 30-45 minutes before that point; she was too busy sinking.

IOW, you're multiplying one wrong number by another one to get your answer. GIGO

 

[Steve]

Never seen a thread here go this far off the rails. Not even fun any more.