Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[lobosrul5]

Makes more sense if you use the picture of him from Raiders of the Lost Ark. He was one of the Government agents who sent Jones on his quest.

Top...Men...

Lol, I know that exact scene. Just re-watched them... thats the same dude huh, lost some weight since between 77 and 81.



ETA: and before anyone says... yeah I know thats Doc Ock.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If it was a submarine that did it, who shot the captain and why?

 

[Andy_Ross]

As for slamming in to a head sea when you try to push on too fast, here's a video I linked once before, it's a Royal Navy frigate sailing fast in to a head sea, ande it's not even that rough. It shows what happens when you sail too fast. Bearing in mind a Leander Frigate was designed to sail too fast in to a head sea, that's why the forecastle is raised like it is, to increase buoyancy in the bows.
Sometimes a warship has to get somewhere whatever the conditions.



Similar for a USN Destroyer racing to get ahead of the carrier it's escorting.



For real rough conditions here's the New Zealand patrol ship Otago in a proper storm

 

[lobosrul5]

If it was a submarine that did it, who shot the captain and why?

Didn't you know Nelson fired chain at his enemy's masts after going yardarm to yardarm... you know... just to be sure, ergo whoever sunk the Estonia did so by bribing/blackmailing/murdering the crew, blowing a hole in the side of the ship with C4, melting the front hatch with cesium, starting a fire, torpedoing the ship, and then ramming it with a surfaced submarine.

They were very thorough, and experienced black ops operators. They made sure marine radio was jammed (except it wasn't) but a cellphone call could be made for plausible deniability. They carried this out at exactly midnight, because thats what the best of the best does! Military precision baby.

 

[lobosrul5]

As for slamming in to a head sea when you try to push on too fast, here's a video I linked once before, it's a Royal Navy frigate sailing fast in to a head sea, ande it's not even that rough. It shows what happens when you sail too fast. Bearing in mind a Leander Frigate was designed to sail too fast in to a head sea, that's why the forecastle is raised like it is, to increase buoyancy in the bows.
Sometimes a warship has to get somewhere whatever the conditions.



Similar for a USN Destroyer racing to get ahead of the carrier it's escorting.

Looks like a whole line of DDG's in that second video. I think this was some sort of demonstration, they don't normally keep station anywhere near that close. The amount of water that would be forced in through a hole in the bow the size you can drive a truck into would be incredible.

 

[JayUtah]

There are 6,000 ships on the bottom of the Great Lakes, most all were sunk in "rough seas".

In her rush to tie everyone up in knots (pun intended) over irrelevancies, Vixen forgot what we were talking about. SS Edmund Fitzgerald foundered simply because the seas were too rough for her in her condition, and sank so quickly that Capt. McSorley—who had been making regular and incidental radio reports to his colleague in command of SS Arthur Anderson—couldn't get off a single word of alarm. Despite Vixen's lay belief, ships can in fact sink very quickly.

 

[JayUtah]

The obsession over the rescue team's medals is just weird.

Or, I would say, desperate. It's a weak inference: If the people involved were given "combat" decorations, then the operation they were involved in "must" have been a military operation. This is offered irrespective of the actual observable nature of the rescue mission. Further, it opens the question why a supposed military operation meant to be kept secret would result in public decorations specifically for the mission.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Didn't you know Nelson fired chain at his enemy's masts after going yardarm to yardarm... you know... just to be sure, ergo whoever sunk the Estonia did so by bribing/blackmailing/murdering the crew, blowing a hole in the side of the ship with C4, melting the front hatch with cesium, starting a fire, torpedoing the ship, and then ramming it with a surfaced submarine.

KENNEDY SLAIN BY CIA, MAFIA, CASTRO, LBJ, TEAMSTERS, FREEMASONS
President Shot 129 Times from 43 Different Angles

​

 

[Vixen]

Well Vixen?

I can confirm Kemo sabe was cockney slang for "understand". Actually, it should read Kimo Sabe.

What point are you making, Caller, and what does it have to do with this thread?

 

[Vixen]

...but who has no qualifications relevant to forensic investigation.

Sometimes you do not need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.


Captn Makela doesn't believe what he's been told to believe; why should he even pretend to?

 

[Vixen]

Asked and answered.

Translated: 'Vixen is right again but I cannot admit it or I'll lose face'.

 

[Vixen]

No. Pointing out that you simply seem to numbly repeat claims over and over that others have debunked several times from a position of greater knowledge and apparent intelligence than yours is not an ad hominem argument. Your behavior commits one of the oldest logical fallacies in the world, ignoratio elenchi, as formulated by Aristotle.

Nor is an ad hominem to note that you are generally arguing from a position of ignorance and putting forward expectations forged in ignorance as the yardstick by which reality is to be measured.

Your saying it's debunked doesn't make it so.

 

[JayUtah]

Sometimes you do not need a weatherman...

Ad hoc revision. You're trying to qualify the captain as an expert such that his opinion should be considered somehow authoritative. The captain is not properly qualified. Trying now to change your story to say that no expertise is required to draw a correct conclusion on a point of forensic engineering is both disingenuous and wrong.

Claim rejected.

 

[Vixen]

Svensson rescued seven people, six of whom he accompanied to Huddinge on Y74. The seventh (chronologically the first) went to Uto aboard his original helicopter, Y64. There were a total of nine people on Y74 who ended up in Huddinge Hospital: the six rescuees, plus Svensson himself and two other injured rescue men. And it wasn't just after two. The journalist you and Bjorkman keep quoting simply got the timing wrong.

Also, you still don't seem to be able to get Svensson's job description right (in spite of the fact that the aforementioned reporter does). He wasn't a "winchman", any more than he was a pilot. He was a rescue man.

There were 137 rescued alive and iirc something like 95 dead retrieved. So there were a lot of rescue teams all helping in the rescue, including the pilots.

The guy who rescued the other guy: where is his 'Victoria Cross'...?

 

[Vixen]

What in gods name does that have to do with Caesium? Do you think the Estonia's fire alarm was tied to radiation levels?!?

This is aside from the fact, that, no they weren't.

The point being made is that we have never been told what was in those trucks.

 

[JayUtah]

Translated: 'Vixen is right again but I cannot admit it or I'll lose face'.

Kindly keep your words out of my mouth. This thread is hundreds of pages long only because you stubbornly repeat things that have been addressed and debunked many times.

Your saying it's debunked doesn't make it so.

It is nevertheless so.

For someone claiming to report only "current events," you cycle through a disappointingly small series of lies and misconceptions, all of which have been duly addressed many times.

 

[Vixen]

So, there was flotsam. Prepared to walk back your claim that there was no flotsam?

No bodies... except for all the bodies that were recovered

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...re 138 people rescued,of them 18 months later.

There were 138 people rescued, one of whom died in hospital. Most of those who died drowned, although a third of the 300-odd who reached the outer decks succumbed to hypothermia. Only 93 bodies were recovered, the last of them 18 months later.

Do you really think the conspirators what... collected bodies unseen? OR like what, why exactly?

Er, these were found washed up several days later. Capn. Makela says he was expecting to see all kinds of detritus when he went to the rescue, and the ship, whilst capsized, should still have been visible in the water. He was shocked to see nothing at all. Bumpf! Gone.

 

[JayUtah]

The point being made is that we have never been told what was in those trucks.

No, that's not the point. The point is that you claimed that nuclear waste was being smuggled on board MS Estonia, and that a reaction from this waste either started a fire or melted a portion of the ship. You cited a parody of Wikipedia as your source, not realizing it was intended as a joke claim.

The question now is whether you will admit your error and retract your claim, or pay any kind of attention to the thorough refutation of the claim that has been offered.

 

[Vixen]

is 157 mph.

Must check your work.


knots into miles ph by Username Vixen, on Flickr

 

[JayUtah]

Capn. Makela says he was expecting to see all kinds of detritus when he went to the rescue, and the ship, whilst capsized, should still have been visible in the water. He was shocked to see nothing at all. Bumpf! Gone.

And the captain is wrong.