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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

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TurkeysGhost said:
Cool story.
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Yep.
Here is another cool story, winners everywhere.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/93...der-cop-who-has-found-acceptance-in-the-force

Stunning and brave?
If so, who are the winners?

He drove Posie Parker from New Zealand, in collusion with Shaneel Lal, who as a 21 year old tricked parliament into getting GENDER expression into a criminal offence format.
Nothing but winners everywhere, especially the gay kids who are accidentally sterilized.
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
Ok, but let's not pretend that the current gallop by reactionaries to pass anti-trans laws are motivated by anything but outright animus.
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Here's a concept I want every liberal and progressive to have seared into their skull: "Your sole evidence for anything can't be that conservatives are mad at it."

Or as I like to put it "The Red Scare didn't make communism a good idea."

"The enemy of my enemy is not my necessarily my friend" is as valid in ideas as it is in anything else.

The fact that other agents, bad agents acting for bad reasons, are against something doesn't mean I'm obligated to rubber stamp 100% agreement on it.

Again this is where your "I hate TERFs, I don't actually care about trans people" attitude comes back to bite you in the ass. The people you claim to hate have all the volition because you let them control the narrative.

"TERFs are bad but I still don't agree that you can magically change some meaningful part of who you are by just saying so" is still valid.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Here's a concept I want every liberal and progressive to have seared into their skull: "Your sole evidence for anything can't be that conservatives are mad at it."
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Here's a concept I'd like enlightened centrists to have seared in their head: "You can't ignore that intense bigotry is the factor driving one side of the conversation just because you'd prefer to be having a reasonable, good faith debate".

I'm discussing the trans issue in the context that actually exists, not the one you might prefer existed.
 
Trausti said:
Perhaps not surprisingly, teen suicide jumped about the time we began telling young people they were born in the wrong body. Maybe we should stop telling them that.

[qimg]https://www.charliehealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/641cc4611f412d53082a852a_Stacker-Suicide-Rates_Graph-1.webp[/qimg]
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This could be used as a textbook example of a post hoc fallacy.
 
theprestige said:
It could also be used as the basis for serious scientific inquiry into the nature of the observed correlation. My understanding is that a lot of science gets started by observing correlations.
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Given how tiny of a slice of the population trans people make up, seems really implausible that you'd be able to see much impact either way from them on the broader issue of teen suicidality. Anything that moved the trend this much would likely have to be something that was impacting a larger swath of the population, assuming you're looking for a single cause.

Seems to me the big change only occurred after 2008, wonder if any major, society shaking things happened around then...
 
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theprestige said:
It could also be used as the basis for serious scientific inquiry into the nature of the observed correlation. My understanding is that a lot of science gets started by observing correlations.
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I'm sure that's what he meant.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Seems to me the big change only occurred after 2008, wonder if any major, society shaking things happened around then...
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Social media. Which seems to have driven up both teen suicide and gender dysphoria rates.

Social media (which is social the same way North Korea is democratic) causes mental illness.
 
Ziggurat said:
Social media. Which seems to have driven up both teen suicide and gender dysphoria rates.

Social media (which is social the same way North Korea is democratic) causes mental illness.
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I was thinking more the back-breaking recession that followed the '08 financial crisis which lingered for over a decade that must have impacted the lives of young people in quite harmful ways, but it's entirely possible that the radical changes in internet usage the followed the widespread adoption of social media (and smartphone use) could be a factor.
 
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gnome said:
I'm sure that's what he meant.
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Is 1999 some big year for trans rights/acceptance anyway? I'm drawing a blank at what this year is supposed to signify. Broader acceptance and normalization of LGBTQ people was still years away in the US. Dems were still waffling on gay rights well into the 2010s.
 
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gnome said:
I'm sure that's what he meant.
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Correlation does not equal causation. And the jump in teen suicide probably has a bit to do with social media. Yet, before our current transmania, young people were obviously not offing themselves due lack of access to trans “medical care.”
 
TurkeysGhost said:
You can't ignore that intense bigotry is the factor driving one side of the conversation just because you'd prefer to be having a reasonable, good faith debate.
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Is it though? Is it the bigoted crackpots that are being listened to when government and medical authorities reconsider their policies on this subject, or is it the reasonable good faith debaters?
 
TurkeysGhost said:
I was thinking more the back-breaking recession that followed the '08 financial crisis which lingered for over a decade that must have impacted the lives of young people in quite harmful ways
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Why would you think that? Teens are in general relatively insulated from that. Young adults feel that pain because they're at the bottom of the employment ladder, but teens aren't even on that ladder. And their parents are mostly well up the rungs of those ladders because of age. And teen suicide rates didn't improve as the economy rebounded, but instead got steadily worse.
 
Ziggurat said:
Why would you think that? Teens are in general relatively insulated from that. Young adults feel that pain because they're at the bottom of the employment ladder, but teens aren't even on that ladder. And their parents are mostly well up the rungs of those ladders because of age. And teen suicide rates didn't improve as the economy rebounded, but instead got steadily worse.
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I very much disagree that teens did not experience the slings and arrows of misfortune indirectly through hardship that struck their parents.

The whole crisis was famous for single family home foreclosures that left families penniless.
 
Pixel42 said:
Is it though? Is it the bigoted crackpots that are being listened to when government and medical authorities reconsider their policies on this subject, or is it the reasonable good faith debaters?
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I would suppose this is very much dependent on what country you're talking about.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
I very much disagree that teens did not experience the slings and arrows of misfortune indirectly through hardship that struck their parents.

The whole crisis was famous for single family home foreclosures that left families penniless.
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Child and teen suicide rates are only weakly correlated with poverty.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2759427
The 2008 recession may have contributed a bit, but I don't think it comes close to explaining the massive increase.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
I would suppose this is very much dependent on what country you're talking about.
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Hmm, well I hope that doesn't land us in a situation where youths experiencing gender dysphoria get the optimal care in some countries, and in other countries their well-being is sacrificed to the culture wars. That would be a shame.
 
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