Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[d4m10n]

My whole point is that they don't know this is the choice they are making, even though in reality it is very often the choice they are making.

Why then did you put the choice in quotes as if some hypothetical conservative was actually saying it aloud? That's just confusing.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Really? We're doing the whole "Quotations only exist for exact quoting" routine again?

It's not "confusing" you're just being obtuse as a distraction technic. Put the red pen away and stop grading other people's posts as if that's the same thing as a discussion.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Really? We're doing the whole "Quotations only exist for exact quoting" routine again?

It's not "confusing" you're just being obtuse as a distraction technic. Put the red pen away and stop grading other people's posts as if that's the same thing as a discussion.

It's really my fault. Every once in a while I forget why I don't talk to Damian on here.

 

[d4m10n]

We're doing the whole "Quotations only exist for exact quoting" routine again?

Nope; my complaint is more substantive than grammatical. You missed it earlier, so I'll repeat it here. TG's strawman conservative claims to know that his child will inevitably transition, but TG retcons that part out many posts later by saying that the strawman conservative had no idea what would happen.

Put the red pen away and stop grading other people's posts as if that's the same thing as a discussion.

Ironically put, given the extent to which post #1942 completely avoids transgender issues in favor of upbraiding me for my approach to this discussion.

 

[Samson]

I suggest no such thing.

An extremely abusive and transphobic home life sounds like a perfect recipe for suicide risk.

Imagine the youth suicidality in countries without sex change drugs or computers. Man I can see carnage.

 

[Trausti]

Imagine the youth suicidality in countries without sex change drugs or computers. Man I can see carnage.

Perhaps not surprisingly, teen suicide jumped about the time we began telling young people they were born in the wrong body. Maybe we should stop telling them that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I still say suicide is a (somewhat) red herring.

It doesn't "prove" anything either way.

If X is wrong it's wrong and if X is right it's right. "Believe X or I'll kill myself and you don't want me to kill myself do you?" (or 3rd person versions of it) are emotional manipulation, not an argument.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I still say suicide is a (somewhat) red herring.

It doesn't "prove" anything either way.

If X is wrong it's wrong and if X is right it's right. "Believe X or I'll kill myself and you don't want me to kill myself do you?" (or 3rd person versions of it) are emotional manipulation, not an argument.

Pointing out that people with serious mental health disorders may kill themselves (or have other negative outcomes) if they don't get proper treatment for those disorders is not emotional manipulation.

It's a really weird way to frame mental health care. Telling parents that refusing to treat their children's serious mental health problems, like severe gender dysphoria, may result in increased suicide risk isn't manipulation. A person with severe chronic depression isn't manipulative when they point out that their anti-depression meds are making them less likely to kill themselves, it's just a statement of fact about the practical realities of living with mental health problems. Stating plainly that needlessly depriving patients of this care they need is increasing their risk of suicide is a rather straightforward understanding of cause and effect.

 

[theprestige]

This is a false comparison. There really are no equivalents of "detransitioners" for sexuality. That really does seem immutable. But gender identity isn't. We know people do actually detransition.

I am, however, open to the possibility that homosexuality is socially constructed, at least some of the time. Prisons, for example. And apparently the Russian army. Perhaps ancient Rome, as well? Or do we just confidently assume that Roman catamites were scrupulously selected only from among candidates who were already known to to be homosexual by innate inclination?

 

[Trausti]

Pointing out that people with serious mental health disorders may kill themselves (or have other negative outcomes) if they don't get proper treatment for those disorders is not emotional manipulation.

It's a really weird way to frame mental health care. Telling parents that refusing to treat their children's serious mental health problems, like severe gender dysphoria, may result in increased suicide risk isn't manipulation.

What's also very weird is not ruling out all the other more likely possiblities as to why a young person might feel depressed. When all you have is a hammer . . .

 

[JoeMorgue]

Pointing out that people with serious mental health disorders may kill themselves (or have other negative outcomes) if they don't get proper treatment for those disorders is not emotional manipulation..

No but it someone says they think they are Napoleon and they will kill themselves if you don't agree they are Napoleon the correct action is to get them help, not just agree they are Napoleon.

There is a difference between being driven to suicide via harassment over not being accepted and just going "If you don't agree with me about something I'm going to kill myself and it's all your fault."

"Youths" are drama queens who are going to kill themselves over everything AND youth suicide is a major problem can both be true.

Again my only point is "Trans suicide numbers are high, ergo trans has be correct by definition" is reductive at best.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Again my only point is "Trans suicide numbers are high, ergo trans has be correct by definition" is reductive at best.

Whoever is saying that is certainly quite foolish.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Whoever is saying that is certainly quite foolish.

"I'm not saying trans is correct... BUT I am saying if you don't agree trans is correct that's wanting trans people to kill themselves" is the same thing. Don't play the "Show me where I said that game" with me.

One that does piss me off about so much of the pro-Trans side is how little respect for trans people being functioning adults who can put on their big boy pants and survive having someone disagree with them so many of their argument seem to have.

They aren't all children who can only be pacified by just agreeing with them.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

"I'm not saying trans is correct... BUT I am saying if you don't agree trans is correct that's wanting trans people to kill themselves" is the same thing. Don't play the "Show me where I said that game" with me.

One that does piss me off about so much of the pro-Trans side is how little respect for trans people being functioning adults who can put on their big boy pants and survive having someone disagree with them so many of their argument seem to have.

They aren't all children who can only be pacified by just agreeing with them.

Pretty sure the grievances that trans people are complaining most about go a good bit further than "people are rude to us".

Being able to access medical care without undue interference from the state seems to be a non-aesthetic complaint to me.

 

[theprestige]

Pointing out that people with serious mental health disorders may kill themselves (or have other negative outcomes) if they don't get proper treatment for those disorders is not emotional manipulation.

Resolved: Social transition, and medical transition, are treatments for people with serious mental health disorders.

Hypothesis: Trans Rights Activists will welcome serious scientific inquiry into the nature of the serious mental health disorders in question, and will welcome serious scientific inquiry into whether and in what circumstances social and medical transition really are the best treatments.

Null Hypothesis: Trans Rights Activists will not welcome such scientific inquiry.

So far, TRAs are proving out the null. Maybe you'd like to buck the trend, TurkeysGhost?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Pretty sure the grievances that trans people are complaining most about go a good bit further than "people are rude to us".

Being able to access medical care without undue interference from the state seems to be a non-aesthetic complaint to me.

The "medical care" also assumes they are correct before the discussion is allowed to begin.

Stop pretending to not get it, it's not a good look when you do it either.

 

[d4m10n]

The "medical care" also assumes they are correct before the discussion is allowed to begin.

No one doubts that the endocrine pathway is medical care, just as no one doubts that frontal lobotomies were medical care. The question is whether such irreversible procedures do more good than harm to the patients involved.

 

[Aber]

Pointing out that people with serious mental health disorders may kill themselves (or have other negative outcomes) if they don't get proper treatment for those disorders is not emotional manipulation.

Assumes that "proper treatment" involves medical transition.

The evidence for this is weak to non-existent.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The "medical care" also assumes they are correct before the discussion is allowed to begin.

Stop pretending to not get it, it's not a good look when you do it either.

Ok, but let's not pretend that the current gallop by reactionaries to pass anti-trans laws are motivated by anything but outright animus.

I would agree with you if you're complaining that current political climate, where reactionaries are frothing at the mouth with bigotry against trans people (and all queer people more broadly), makes discussing the finer issues more difficult, but that's the reality. You can't ignore the elephant in the room, which is that a significant minority of the population is 100% motivated by intense, irrational hatred of trans people than out of any legitimate concern about minimizing harm or whatever.

These laws banning medical transition for minors exist because many parents who aren't zealots on either side of the issue often, after careful consultation with actual medical professionals, decide that social and medical transition is probably the best path forward for their children, and these right wingers find that totally unacceptable.

 

[Samson]

Ok, but let's not pretend that the current gallop by reactionaries to pass anti-trans laws are motivated by anything but outright animus.

I would agree with you if you're complaining that current political climate, where reactionaries are frothing at the mouth with bigotry against trans people (and all queer people more broadly), makes discussing the finer issues more difficult, but that's the reality. You can't ignore the elephant in the room, which is that a significant minority of the population is 100% motivated by intense, irrational hatred of trans people than out of any legitimate concern about minimizing harm or whatever.

These laws banning medical transition for minors exist because many parents who aren't zealots on either side of the issue often, after careful consultation with actual medical professionals, decide that social and medical transition is probably the best path forward for their children, and these right wingers find that totally unacceptable.

I have listened to hundreds of hours of podcasts out of deep fascination for the subject.
You are very wrong in your views.