Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[lobosrul5]

You don't think Russia would commit 'mass murder'? It thought nothing of killing eight Swedish airmen in the 1950's whom they believed were spying. It could be said that those thousand or so passengers were being used as a human shield if it was hoped by the military that the smuggling could not be stopped by aggressive means. The idea that an enemy state doesn't mind spying and smuggling seems terribly naive.

Point 1: The USA was buying some ex-Soviet stuff from Russia in the 1990's.

I accept this.

Point 2: some group within Russia cared SO ******* MUCH that PRECIOUS SOVIET STUFF WAS GOING TO THE 'ORRIBLE 'ORRIBLE WEST that they were willing AND CAPABPLE of sinking a ferry crossing the Baltic.

I do not accept this. Its pure ******* fantasy, AND thats even if you were to somehow give some sort of credible evidence that there WAS military cargo on the Estonia (you haven't).. No one gave a flying ****, everyone was trying to get rich or survive in Russia in the 1990s. Giving me some story about a surveillance plane shot down in the the 1950's by the Soviets is not analogous.

AND THEN... oh AND THEN... you keep changing your CT. Maybe it was the Russians or oh no maybe it was Sweden that sank the ferry for what possible purpose?!?!? Oh no no maybe it was the cargo itself that exploded. Oh no maybe the cesium MELTED THE STEEL LOCKS (?!?!?!?!!?!?!?). But, also somehow didn't cause acute radiation sickness on the surviving passengers and crew.

And you are arguing that your link isn't parody its satire. THIS WHOLE THREAD IS SATIRE MADAM!

 

[JayUtah]

The key thing about satire is that it speaks a truth whilst mocking pomposity.

Irrelevant. You cited the web site as documentation for a particular theory that included the fictional elements the site advanced for humor value.

You were fooled into thinking the claims it made were true in all particulars. You didn't seem to consider that it was a parody site until it was brought to your attention.

 

[Vixen]

Again, you need to show that there was anything being smuggled on the Estonia in the first place, before you take off on yet another flight of fancy.

Did you not read Hirschfeld's report? The reason Hirschfeld was co-opted to answer to the Riksdag at all is because a radio station broadcast claims from a senior customs officer that he was told to wave through various consignments coming off the Estonia ferry.

The customs officer related:

A week later, on September 20, 1994, a much larger shipment of contraband technology arrived and was allowed to pass without inspection. This time it was a van and, once again, Henriksson merely glanced into the boxes. "What were you thinking this second time?" reporter Lars Borgnäs asked. "I thought it was a strange procedure," Henriksson said. "But orders are orders and you don't reflect too much on why."

Henriksson came forward because he felt it was his duty and Hirschfeld confirmed the two dates he alleged. Henriksson was on vacation on 28 September but you note the other two occasions were roughly a week apart. Plus witnesses claim to have seen a military truck or military trucks load onto the Estonia at the last minute, causing arguments between the officers and the home guard and a delay in departure of fifteen minutes.

A survivor named E Klug upon being rescued was swiftly visited by Swedish customs who raced to the scene to interrogate him, so what was their big interest, if not the 'cargo'?

 

[Mojo]

The key thing about satire is that it speaks a truth whilst mocking pomposity.

Awesome.

 

[zooterkin]

Did you not read Hirschfeld's report? The reason Hirschfeld was co-opted to answer to the Riksdag at all is because a radio station broadcast claims from a senior customs officer that he was told to wave through various consignments coming off the Estonia ferry.

The customs officer related:



Henriksson came forward because he felt it was his duty and Hirschfeld confirmed the two dates he alleged. Henriksson was on vacation on 28 September but you note the other two occasions were roughly a week apart. Plus witnesses claim to have seen a military truck or military trucks load onto the Estonia at the last minute, causing arguments between the officers and the home guard and a delay in departure of fifteen minutes.

A survivor named E Klug upon being rescued was swiftly visited by Swedish customs who raced to the scene to interrogate him, so what was their big interest, if not the 'cargo'?

As I thought, no evidence.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... it all seems very efficiently done if it was a military attack: no means of stopping it and no means of rescue; communications down...

A suicide mission like that doesn't strike me as anything any remotely competent military would plan.

So why didn't the Rockwater guys, who searched the vessel thoroughly, going through it floor by floor, cabin by cabin, stairwell by stairwell, deck by deck, from the ship's bar to the lounge, up to the bridge, etcetera, not even notice the gaping breach in the hull?

Hopelessly dishonest. You're vastly exaggerating how much of the upper portion of the wreck they could safely examine. And you're pretending to be bewildered that they didn't consider it safe to search under the wreck. This is desperate stuff.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Er, the defence forces. You do know that even in England half the establishment are not democratically elected. You will not be told what the contents of Prince Philip's will are for 75 years, even though he paid no inheritance tax, for example. Likewise, there are generals making all kinds of decisions that you will know nothing about.

Is this rambling stuff supposed to be a claim that the Swedish Army has the authority to order Sweden's customs officers to let vehicles pass unexamined?

 

[Vixen]

Irrelevant. You cited the web site as documentation for a particular theory that included the fictional elements the site advanced for humor value.

You were fooled into thinking the claims it made were true in all particulars. You didn't seem to consider that it was a parody site until it was brought to your attention.

The Paldiski site which was a USSR base was being decommissioned during the era of the fall of the USSR and there was indeed a LOT of smuggling going on. This included highly radioactive materials associated with reactors. These materials had high market value. The smuggling was such that it caused nightmares for all of the nordics customs. Given one of the ship's engineers was later convicted of drug smuggling - drugs which make their way across the Russian steppes - it is fair to assume people did smuggle dangerous substance or at least tried to.

 

[JayUtah]

The Paldiski...

None of this fixes your problem. You cited a joke site as if it were true and then tried to bluff your way out of it.

 

[lobosrul5]

As I have pointed out before, if the sinking of the Estonia was a military operation then the means by which to achieve it can be more than one. For example, Nelson, considered by many to be one of the finest naval strategists who ever lived, always followed up a cannon shot with that of a double-headed hammer (so censor me!!!), so it can be both an explosive device and a submarine. (I am not saying it was.) However, if you look at the chronology of events, it all seems very efficiently done if it was a military attack: no means of stopping it and no means of rescue; communications down, clear message sent. So why didn't the Rockwater guys, who searched the vessel thoroughly, going through it floor by floor, cabin by cabin, stairwell by stairwell, deck by deck, from the ship's bar to the lounge, up to the bridge, etcetera, not even notice the gaping breach in the hull? Or even make any effort to identify who exactly was on the bridge. This is surely important information, it being the captain's manor. Would it not have helped the JAIC to know why Captain Arvo Andresson lost control of the vessel?

What in gods name are you talking about with Nelson and double headed hammer?! Are you talking about double loading cannon?!

No means of rescue??!? Except you know, for all the people that were rescued. ETA: so which was it, this awesomely planned military operation by crack special forces operatives, or "ned in the 3rd ******* grade" who couldn't even successfully jam a cell phone signal?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

The Paldiski site which was a USSR base was being decommissioned during the era of the fall of the USSR and there was indeed a LOT of smuggling going on. This included highly radioactive materials associated with reactors. These materials had high market value. The smuggling was such that it caused nightmares for all of the nordics customs. Given one of the ship's engineers was later convicted of drug smuggling - drugs which make their way across the Russian steppes - it is fair to assume people did smuggle dangerous substance or at least tried to.

That's not the theory you selected though, is it? The theory you chose to reproduce was that nuclear waste melted the bow locks.

 

[Steve]

That's not what he said. Try actually reading what people write next time. It might stop you from making a fool of yourself.

Perhaps a disconnect between the visual cortex and the frontal lobe? The words that are seen do not register correctly?

 

[Vixen]

As I thought, no evidence.

Harri Ruotsalainen, who is a part of the Estonian working party into the new investigation believes he DOES have evidence.

Finnish JAIC employee Harri Ruotsalainen stated that Estonia shortly after departure from Tallinn at 19:15 on On September 28, 1994, after crossing the Estonian island of Dagö, they went down at a speed of 6/ 5 knots and then opened the car ramp in the back to throw one or two trucks into the sea, which had probably smuggled drugs.‎‎

Evidence?

Harri Ruotsalainen can prove this drastic decrease in speed with radar images from the Finnish Coast Guard.‎‎

Now he might sound like a crank but he is taken seriously. The above is from a radio interview.

.

 

[Here_to_learn]

So in other words, were it the CIA/MUST who ordered all that gear, this information was concealed from Hirschfeld's attention?

If it was above board, why the need to sneak it past customs at all?

That is incorrect, as has been discussed multiple times. You can also read it in the report. Given how often you bring this report up, one would expect you to actually have read it.

Det har genom utredningsarbetet kunnat klarläggas att Försvarsmakten vid två tillfällen under september månad 1994 har transporterat försvarsmateriel med M/S Estonia, nämligen den 14 och 20 september. Materielen har bestått av elektronisk utrustning utan någon anknytning till vapensystem. Materielen har inte till någon del varit av explosiv beskaffenhet. Den utrustning som ingått i de två nämnda transporterna har avsetts för det svenska försvaret.

Through the investigative work, it has been possible to clarify that on two occasions during the month of September 1994, the Swedish defence transported defense equipment with M/S Estonia, namely on 14 and 20 September. The material has consisted of electronic equipment with no connection to weapon systems. The material has not been of an explosive nature to any extent. The equipment included in the two mentioned transports has been intended for the Swedish defence.

also

Enligt överenskommelsen skulle införsel föregås av en särskild anmälan från Försvarsmakten till Generaltullstyrelsen. Min utredning har visat att Försvarsmakten, vid de två nämnda transporterna under september 1994, muntligen har anmält vid vilken tidpunkt och med vilket fordon införsel skulle komma att ske samt därvid uppgivit vilken materiel som avsågs. Tullen har i samband med införseln kunnat inspektera godset för att säkerställa att endast det som anmälts förts in och därvid fatta de beslut som tullen funnit nödvändiga.

According to the agreement, entry would be preceded by a special notification from the Swedish defence to the General Board of Customs. My investigation has shown that the Swedish defence, in connection with the two mentioned transports during September 1994, verbally notified at what time and with which vehicle the importation would take place and stated what material was intended. Customs has been able to inspect the goods in connection with the entry to ensure that only what has been declared has been brought in and thereby make the decisions that customs found necessary.

What was not in his remit to investigate is if any other country was transporting material on Estonia. So if CIA for example did it on their own, without involving the Swedish Defence that would not have been found out by this investigation.

However anything that included the Swedish defence (including MUST/KSI) was within the scope of the investigation.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Henriksson speaks in Swedish.

When the ferry arrived on Sept. 14, 1994, Henriksson spoke to the driver of the expected vehicle, a Volvo 745 station wagon driven by a Frank Larsson, a false identity.

Hirschfeld confirmed that Henriksson was correct about the date of smuggling and the fact it was waved through.

Is a Volvo 745 station wagon a model of Soviet army truck?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The key thing about satire is that it speaks a truth whilst mocking pomposity.

Oh my. You've decided to double down and pretend that not only were you not fooled by the joke website which obviously fooled you, but you regard its joke as truth.

Hahahahahahahahaha <breathe> hahahahahahahahaha!

 

[Andy_Ross]

You don't think Russia would commit 'mass murder'? It thought nothing of killing eight Swedish airmen in the 1950's whom they believed were spying. It could be said that those thousand or so passengers were being used as a human shield if it was hoped by the military that the smuggling could not be stopped by aggressive means. The idea that an enemy state doesn't mind spying and smuggling seems terribly naive.

So it wasn't sunk by it's escorting submarine ramming it?

 

[Vixen]

That is incorrect, as has been discussed multiple times. You can also read it in the report. Given how often you bring this report up, one would expect you to actually have read it.




also




What was not in his remit to investigate is if any other country was transporting material on Estonia. So if CIA for example did it on their own, without involving the Swedish Defence that would not have been found out by this investigation.

However anything that included the Swedish defence (including MUST/KSI) was within the scope of the investigation.

So, ' the Swedish defence transported defense equipment with M/S Estonia, namely on 14 and 20 September'... do you see why people were concerned that military defence equipment was being sent, customs sight unseen, on a passenger ferry packed with little children, old age pensioners on an outing, a group of young mothers - whose children were now left without mothers - seventy or so Stockholm police workers on a conference? Is it right that this very proper concern about the nature of the cargo should be brushed off as a 'conspiracy theory'?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

So, ' the Swedish defence transported defense equipment with M/S Estonia, namely on 14 and 20 September'... do you see why people were concerned that military defence equipment was being sent, customs sight unseen, on a passenger ferry packed with little children, old age pensioners on an outing, a group of young mothers - whose children were now left without mothers - seventy or so Stockholm police workers on a conference? Is it right that this very proper concern about the nature of the cargo should be brushed off as a 'conspiracy theory'?

Except as has been mentioned time and time again, the Estonia was not carrying this cargo when it sank.

You keep trying to insinuate that it was but it simply wasn't. You only have wishful thinking supporting you.

 

[JayUtah]

So, ' the Swedish defence transported defense equipment with M/S Estonia, namely on 14 and 20 September'...

But not ordnance, and not on Soviet trucks, and not on the day Estonia sank.

...whose children were now left without mothers...

Sobbing is not evidence.

Is it right that this very proper concern about the nature of the cargo should be brushed off as a 'conspiracy theory'?

Yes. The evidence doesn't support it.