• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

Status
Not open for further replies.
...he had no choice but to confirm what Customs Officer Lennart Henriksson who witnessed smuggling* by 'higher forces than the government' to wave them through customs.

This always gives me a laugh. It might sound impressive dialog in the X-Files but try to imagine attempting to browbeat real customs officers that a particular truck is not to be inspected and when they ask the obvious "Who the **** are you?" you reply "I represent forces higher than the government". It's so kitschy it's adorable.
 
This always gives me a laugh. It might sound impressive dialog in the X-Files but try to imagine attempting to browbeat real customs officers that a particular truck is not to be inspected and when they ask the obvious "Who the **** are you?" you reply "I represent forces higher than the government". It's so kitschy it's adorable.

It's Sweden so...the King?
 

bond-blofeld1.jpg
 
Re: The parody website that Vixen embarrassingly has used as a source:
JayUtah said:
False either way. And they sure fooled you.
You quoted a satirical website as a source for a claim about the Estonia sinking, and you didn't know it was a satirical website, you thought it was a legit source.

That's how you were fooled.

How can you not know this? :confused:
 
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel


IOW he had no choice but to confirm what Customs Officer Lennart Henriksson who witnessed smuggling* by 'higher forces than the government' to wave them through customs.
What's the source for the quote in bold? It's not in the source above.

I bet Henriksson said no such thing. I'm willing to be proven wrong. [edit: This thread is the only result for searching for the exact quote "higher forces than the government"]
 
Last edited:
Right off the bat, you're citing an idiot...

Agreed.

And why would we steal it from the Russians when we were and still are working with them on the ISS?

And? We paid for it. We didn't steal it. How , in any rational world, is this relevent?

During the Cold War we had to resort to some underhanded means of obtaining materials we could only get from Soviet Bloc countries. Most notably, the titanium to build the SR-71 all came from the former Soviet Union. But the notion that it would be smuggled in tiny amounts on passenger liners is thoroughly ridiculous. As I noted, we (meaning mostly the CIA) set up shell companies and semi-legitimate supply chains that were just complicated and murky enough to keep the Soviets from guessing where the titanium was ultimately going. We needed these materials in engineering amounts, not something you can stuff under the seat of an army truck.

We were sharing certain elements of space technology beginning back in the 1970s. That only escalated as time went on. By the early 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union, we were sharing things openly. I know because I was there and got to work freely with Russian colleagues. My Russian is still terrible, but I'm a witness to just how badly wrong Rabe has the details. And as far as materiel, we were buying it from them openly whereas before it was through the aforementioned shell companies.

That's not to say we were on equal footing. When the Soviet Union lost the race to the Moon, they sank everything into space stations. Afterward, we sank everything into the STS, which was less wise in retrospect. So the initial collaboration was NASA trying to learn everything they could about the Russian advances in space-station techniques, the result of which was the first ISS design. W. Von Braun's original plan for further exploration of the Solar System was to build an orbital station to assemble space vehicles in orbit. To build that required a space shuttle, which was considered at the time the lowest cost access to orbit. We only got as far as building STS before Congress decided nothing more was worth funding. That's why Von Braun left NASA. His plan wasn't advanced until the ISS was built.

And? The great thing about 1990s USA was we had cash, and the Russians needed it. So why not buy these things out in the open with all the other things we were buying at the time.

This point specifically addresses metallurgy and I want to flesh this out. Yes, the Russians were ahead of the U.S. in many aspects of metallurgy, some involving exotic rare-earth elements. As you note, they just sold us whatever we asked for. But it's interesting to know where this came from, since it relates to the previous point about the RD-170.

An evolution of the traditional liquid-fueled rocket is the staged-combustion design. To provide mechanical power, a turbine is operated using a mix of propellants that's either fuel-rich or oxidizer-rich in order to keep the temperature down. The exhaust from this is fed back into the powerhead and fleshed out to full stoichiometrics so that the propulsive burn is fully realized. The U.S. prefers fuel-rich designs, so that the turbine exhaust contains unburnt fuel species. The Russians use oxidizer-rich designs, which (for handwavy science reasons) are more efficient.

The design problem is that propellant lines are almost always some ferrous alloy, and very hot oxygen has a tendency to literally burn iron, not just melt it. This is how oxyacetylene cutting torches work. So we were very interested in the metallurgy in Russian rocket engines. The result of our information sharing is, among other things, the SpaceX Raptor engine, which is the final evolution of staged combustion: full flow. The ongoing danger of the design is illustrated by the NK-33 and the loss of an Antares rocket a few years ago that used them.

Yes, it suggests the people who put together the JAIC are not delusional nutjobs who chase ghost stories.

Conspiracy theorists really do take themselves way too seriously. It's not ominous or derelict that an investigative body didn't consider some wacky scheme or another. These are professional investigators, not wild-eyed conspiratorialists trying to make a name for themselves.
 
Now Jay, don't be so silly. That might have been how things were in the real world in the 90's, but in the poorly written spy novel in Vixen's head it's obvious the US was smuggling tiny amounts of a metal it was openly buying from Russia because the Stalinists in power in Russia wouldn't sell to the US. When these Stalinists like Putin found out, they sent a sub to sink the ship at midnight as a warning to the West. Or something.
 
Estonia Perpetrating Ingenious Russian Bastards?

If you have a ship to sink, a ship with radioactive soviet cesium, if even Spetsnaz cannot help you, and if you can find them, maybe YOU can hire the...

Estonian Poseidon Inglorious Rushkie Basterds

Payment only accepted in Nazi scalps. Void where prohibited. TTL extra. Member FDIC. Side effects may include very long CT threads in forums, priapism, and death.
 
Last edited:
Sooooo nothing at all about what I asked. That someone or some group opposed the selling of ex Soviet material and equipment to the west. That they were such true believer communists that they were willing to commit mass murder to stop it.

There's no evidence for it. That's the central pillar to your whole CT isn't it?

You don't think Russia would commit 'mass murder'? It thought nothing of killing eight Swedish airmen in the 1950's whom they believed were spying. It could be said that those thousand or so passengers were being used as a human shield if it was hoped by the military that the smuggling could not be stopped by aggressive means. The idea that an enemy state doesn't mind spying and smuggling seems terribly naive.
 
Right off the bat, you're citing an idiot, conspiracy monger as your source. She's been proven wrong twice at this point.



And why would we steal it from the Russians when we were and still are working with them on the ISS?



And? We paid for it. We didn't steal it. How , in any rational world, is this relevent?



I'll defer this one to Jay Utah...after he stops laughing...



If it's so small, why not take it on an airplane, or FedEx it?



And? The great thing about 1990s USA was we had cash, and the Russians needed it. So why not buy these things out in the open with all the other things we were buying at the time.



I'll defer this one for Jay too, but I think he's going to call BS on this one as well.



He denies it because she's a liar.



You mean the guy who needs the cause of the sinking to be anything other than the actual cause of the sinking suggested something else? Shocking.



You've posted this BS several times. The second investigation proves this is all wrong, or irrelevant.



Yes, it suggests the people who put together the JAIC are not delusional nutjobs who chase ghost stories.



And yet they've surveyed the car deck. They've videoed the car deck. What you've typed is not true.


The idea that 'it was a rocky outcrop what dunnit' seems just as much an inspired idea as anything Jutta Rabe had to offer.

Answer this: how come Germany refused to sign the Peace of Estonia Treaty and why won't Meyer-Werft just put up its hand and admit liability? OK, so the compo would come to perhaps billions but that would barely dent its Balance Sheet when all is said and done.
 
Satire, not parody. There is a difference.

They weren't being serious though, that's the issue here. You gobbled up obviously untrue satire and presented it as real. When we pointed it out you doubled down on it.

But please, do explain how nuclear waste could have melted the bow lock. Please be specific.
 
The idea that 'it was a rocky outcrop what dunnit' seems just as much an inspired idea as anything Jutta Rabe had to offer.

Answer this: how come Germany refused to sign the Peace of Estonia Treaty and why won't Meyer-Werft just put up its hand and admit liability? OK, so the compo would come to perhaps billions but that would barely dent its Balance Sheet when all is said and done.

:dl:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom