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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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Vixen said:
You don't think Russia would commit 'mass murder'? It thought nothing of killing eight Swedish airmen in the 1950's whom they believed were spying. It could be said that those thousand or so passengers were being used as a human shield if it was hoped by the military that the smuggling could not be stopped by aggressive means. The idea that an enemy state doesn't mind spying and smuggling seems terribly naive.
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Again, you need to show that there was anything being smuggled on the Estonia in the first place, before you take off on yet another flight of fancy.
 
phiwum said:
That doesn't justify your traffics inconsistency.

Either there was sabotage so there was no accidental collision or there was an accident of some sort and so all your claims of military precision and sabotage are bunk.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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As I have pointed out before, if the sinking of the Estonia was a military operation then the means by which to achieve it can be more than one. For example, Nelson, considered by many to be one of the finest naval strategists who ever lived, always followed up a cannon shot with that of a double-headed hammer (so censor me!!!), so it can be both an explosive device and a submarine. (I am not saying it was.) However, if you look at the chronology of events, it all seems very efficiently done if it was a military attack: no means of stopping it and no means of rescue; communications down, clear message sent. So why didn't the Rockwater guys, who searched the vessel thoroughly, going through it floor by floor, cabin by cabin, stairwell by stairwell, deck by deck, from the ship's bar to the lounge, up to the bridge, etcetera, not even notice the gaping breach in the hull? Or even make any effort to identify who exactly was on the bridge. This is surely important information, it being the captain's manor. Would it not have helped the JAIC to know why Captain Arvo Andresson lost control of the vessel?
 
JayUtah said:
Yeah, it's pretty hilarious. The mag torque story might be true; it's hard to tell since there are few details and what details there are are wrong. But if a big-wig from SDI was watching the Soviets test mag torquers, it's not a secret or something we're slobbering over. If that's the scenario then it's just a dog-an-pony show.

Earth's magnetic field is too weak for EM torquing to be effective for spacecraft chassis of the sizes and masses we were considering for SDI operations. It's like steering your car by sticking your hand out of the left or right window to create differential drag. The good news is that—unlike reaction wheels—mag torquers have far fewer moving parts and therefore run less risk of crapping out after 10 years in orbit. The bad news is that they're too weak to get excited about. Reaction wheels are far superior, and if you do your free-body dynamics correctly, you can arrange them to tolerate substantial dropout over time.

As for Russian engines, they ran the gamut from the excellent RD-170 to the piece-of-crap NK-33. In the mid-1990s, we were working very closely with the Russians to figure out how to interoperate all our space systems. The notion that we'd be skulking about trying to get all their metallurgical secrets is ludicrous. That's why Vixen's author has to grope so far back to when the Cold War was still a thing.
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Perhaps you can elucidate us all as to what exactly was being smuggled through customs on the two September 1994 dates Hirschfeld points out?
 
Here_to_learn said:
I'll start by linking back to one of the previous times you repeated your lies: http://www.internationalskeptics.co...p=13736950&highlight=Hirschfeldt#post13736950


Two things wrong with this:
1. Why do you insist on calling the Swedish Parliament the "Rikstag"? In Swedish it's the Riksdag. But you can just as well use the English term.
2. The Report was to the Government, not to the Riksdag. You quoted that yourself in the next post.

Nope, Hirschfeldt uses multiple sources, not just one. You cannot use that report to confirm your conspiracy theory.

Yes. For the reason that a lot of conspiracy theorists uses that as an excuse. Not because it contains anything not reported that would support the Conspiracy theorists.

And wrong again. KSI was included in the investigation and the report. The limitation was that he only investigated Swedish government agencies. Not potential foreign.
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So in other words, were it the CIA/MUST who ordered all that gear, this information was concealed from Hirschfeld's attention?

If it was above board, why the need to sneak it past customs at all?
 
Mojo said:
Perhaps you can; it's your conspiracy theory after all.
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Now be fair, the Estonia did transport (not smuggle, transport) something on 14th and 20th September 1994.

It was
military
electronic equipment which „had no connection with weapons systems”
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though, so neither caesium nor osmium.
 
Vixen said:
So in other words, were it the CIA/MUST who ordered all that gear, this information was concealed from Hirschfeld's attention?
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How on Earth are you getting that from the post you quoted?



Also it's time for me to use my favourite image again.

thum_7376764c8421c6872b.png
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Vixen, who would "higher forces than the government" be do you think?
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Er, the defence forces. You do know that even in England half the establishment are not democratically elected. You will not be told what the contents of Prince Philip's will are for 75 years, even though he paid no inheritance tax, for example. Likewise, there are generals making all kinds of decisions that you will know nothing about.
 
Vixen said:
Er, the defence forces. You do know that even in England half the establishment are not democratically elected. You will not be told what the contents of Prince Philip's will are for 75 years, even though he paid no inheritance tax, for example. Likewise, there are generals making all kinds of decisions that you will know nothing about.
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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Oh my god please keep going. This is hilarious.

Please, teach me more of how the world really works Vixen. :p


Do you REALLY think the defence forces are above the government? Really?
 
JesseCuster said:
Re: The parody website that Vixen embarrassingly has used as a source:


You quoted a satirical website as a source for a claim about the Estonia sinking, and you didn't know it was a satirical website, you thought it was a legit source.

That's how you were fooled.

How can you not know this? :confused:
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Hard to be fooled when it is called HIKIPEDIA and there is an 'hilarious' cartoon illustrating it. It is satire. Taking a serious current topic and trying to see a humorous side to it from a political POV.

https://hikipedia.info/wiki/M/S_Estonia
 
Vixen said:
Hard to be fooled when it is called HIKIPEDIA and there is an 'hilarious' cartoon illustrating it. It is satire. Taking a serious current topic and trying to see a humorous side to it from a political POV.

https://hikipedia.info/wiki/M/S_Estonia
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Except that you presented something written on there as a genuine theory and even tried to mock us when we laughed at you for it.
 
Vixen said:
Hard to be fooled when it is called HIKIPEDIA and there is an 'hilarious' cartoon illustrating it. It is satire. Taking a serious current topic and trying to see a humorous side to it from a political POV.
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You cited to it as if it were fact and then tried to bluff your way out of it by gauge allusions to "elementary chemistry."
 
JesseCuster said:
What's the source for the quote in bold? It's not in the source above.

I bet Henriksson said no such thing. I'm willing to be proven wrong. [edit: This thread is the only result for searching for the exact quote "higher forces than the government"]
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Henriksson speaks in Swedish.

Normally, Swedish customs searched every vehicle coming from Estonia. That a vehicle was to pass without inspection was something Henriksson had never seen in 38 years of service.

When the ferry arrived on Sept. 14, 1994, Henriksson spoke to the driver of the expected vehicle, a Volvo 745 station wagon driven by a Frank Larsson, a false identity. When Henriksson told "Larsson" that customs was carrying out inspections, he "gave me a look, but I said the search would be faked,"

Henriksson said. "We opened a few boxes and as far as I could see it was military electronics in them."
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Hirschfeld confirmed that Henriksson was correct about the date of smuggling and the fact it was waved through.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
They weren't being serious though, that's the issue here. You gobbled up obviously untrue satire and presented it as real. When we pointed it out you doubled down on it.

But please, do explain how nuclear waste could have melted the bow lock. Please be specific.
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The key thing about satire is that it speaks a truth whilst mocking pomposity.
 
Vixen said:
The key thing about satire is that it speaks a truth whilst mocking pomposity.
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No, Vixen. You can't get around this. You suggested that the "theory" posited by the website was credible. That theory was obviously bonkers and impossible by design but you gobbled it up.
 
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