Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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The Estonian Investigation Bureau have released a report on the hole in the side.

https://estonia1994.ee/en/news/numerical-assessment-bottom-contact-mv-estonia-published

Nice.

Here are the links to the computer simulations of the impact with the bottom, and the damage:

https://vimeo.com/866624581?share=copy

https://vimeo.com/866624601?share=copy

This one lays out the damage sequence from a static view:

https://vimeo.com/866624634?share=copy

Note there is little damage below the waterline.

No blast holes, no impact with a submarine. Just a ferry losing its bow visor, damaging the bow ramp enough to flood the ship.
 
****, clearly Bildt/The CIA/MI-6/KGB/IMF*/Spetznas/The ghost of Yeltsin GOT TO ESTONIA TOO!!

*Impossible Mission Force OR the International Monetary Fund, we can't know for sure.

Many thousands of pages ago I speculated that PwC and KPMG were involved as well. But a very well placed source has recently shown me that ABC were behind it all. Read the lyrics of “Look of Love” very carefully.
 
Many thousands of pages ago I speculated that PwC and KPMG were involved as well. But a very well placed source has recently shown me that ABC were behind it all. Read the lyrics of “Look of Love” very carefully.

Of course, Price Waterhouse and Coopers & Lybrand didn't merge until 1998, so there wasn't a PwC at the time. There was a KPMG (I thought that merger was later, too, until I looked it up.)

But since when did chronology get in the way of a good conspiracy. Those Freemasons have time machines, from what I hear. :P
 
Many thousands of pages ago I speculated that PwC and KPMG were involved as well. But a very well placed source has recently shown me that ABC were behind it all. Read the lyrics of “Look of Love” very carefully.

The Australian Broadcasting Company sunk the Estonia???

AHHA, it makes perfect sense now!!!

Communications blackout- the ABC specialises in radio transmissions (being a TV and radio broadcaster here)- so of course they were involved in blacking out the VHF radio signals....

It wasn't the darstardly ruskies, it was us Aussies that dunnit...

(leans back in motorised spinning chair in the 'evil lair' in a disguised volcano and laughs evilly while stroking the cat and twirling my handlebar moustache)
 
The Australian Broadcasting Company sunk the Estonia???

AHHA, it makes perfect sense now!!!

Communications blackout- the ABC specialises in radio transmissions (being a TV and radio broadcaster here)- so of course they were involved in blacking out the VHF radio signals....


I had no idea that the Villainous Hovercraft Federation was involved.
 
Of course, Price Waterhouse and Coopers & Lybrand didn't merge until 1998, so there wasn't a PwC at the time. There was a KPMG (I thought that merger was later, too, until I looked it up.)

But since when did chronology get in the way of a good conspiracy. Those Freemasons have time machines, from what I hear. :P

I was working for C&L at the time of the merger. Everybody knew we were experts at bending the rules of accounting; breaking the laws governing time and space was trivial in comparison.
 
That's fascinating; thanks for raising it and as always for translating.

It's ironic that it's Rabe's attempt to add fresh claims to her conspiracy theory which provokes a rebuttal from an eye witness flatly denying claims there were military trucks loaded onto the Estonia on its last voyage.

Vixen does love to insinuate that the two admitted previous occasions that ex-Soviet material was carried on the Estonia somehow mean the same thing happened on its last voyage. The fairy tale seemed to grow and grow with every added detail vying to make it seem more plausible (two army trucks, or maybe four, and they were escorted by uniformed soldiers, or maybe US marines, and they turned up at the last minute and the ferry was held up for them...) but it's really great to get an eyewitness claim that all this simply isn't true. They know who was really last to board the Estonia because it was they themselves.

I'm reminded of a certain poster scolding us early on in these threads about the importance of respecting what the survivors told us about what they saw and heard. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, as the saying goes.

I'm sorry, but the Ovberg chap says he was the last to board. As a frequent traveller on that route, as a businessman, he says he was running a bit late and when he arrived at the port the road had been sealed off by military to make way for a military truck, which he claims he witnessed, as did another passenger, independent of him, from an upper deck. The MV Estonia was fifteen minutes late departing, which in itself is unusual as the nordics tend to be great sticklers for punctuality and keeping to the time tables. The top chief was under contract to reach performance measures as the docking times at the Port of Stockholm had to run smoothly (as with any airport).

I don't doubt Mr Juhannsson thought he was last. It doesn't mean he was.
 
They weren't switched on.

You wish to insinuate there's something fishy going on here. I put it to you (again) that if a vital piece of safety equipment had failed to operate for an unknown reason then the JAIC is very far from being the only group who would be deeply concerned to learn what went wrong and to make sure whatever the failure was got rectified.

I would expect the entire shipping industry to be alarmed by it and at the very least for the model involved to have its certification suspended until the matter was resolved. How would vessels continue to sail with a model of EPIRB which has failed to operate for an unidentified reason? How would they get insurance?

Your EPIRB conspiracist insinuation is as clear a case of the dog which did not bark in the night as I have ever seen.

There was 'alarm in the shipping industry'. The Coastguard Commander contacted Boden (satellite reception centre) in Norway demanding to inspect the signals log because he was convinced that in no way would the EPIRBs of MV Estonia not have emitted a signal to the satellite once immersed. If they were manually activated-only EPIRB's they would have just shrugged their shoulders and said oh, well no-one had a chance to switch them on. The Rockwater divers also, as part of their remit, specifically went to examine the EPIRB cages on the underwater wreck and discovered them both empty and recovered an HRU for one of them, indicating that the HRU had done what it says on the tin - released the EPIRB on immersion with water - but for some reason, someone had switched the EPIRB's off or the ship's electricians/radiographers had failed to reset them after a period of having been switched off whilst idling at port. Yet the inspection logs show they had been inspected the week before as being in ready-normal mode.
 
I'm sorry, but the Ovberg chap says he was the last to board. As a frequent traveller on that route, as a businessman, he says he was running a bit late and when he arrived at the port the road had been sealed off by military to make way for a military truck, which he claims he witnessed, as did another passenger, independent of him, from an upper deck. The MV Estonia was fifteen minutes late departing, which in itself is unusual as the nordics tend to be great sticklers for punctuality and keeping to the time tables. The top chief was under contract to reach performance measures as the docking times at the Port of Stockholm had to run smoothly (as with any airport).

I don't doubt Mr Juhannsson thought he was last. It doesn't mean he was.
Carl Övberg didn't have a car on board, he was driven to the harbour and dropped of there. Boarding on foot is not the same thing as boarding with a car.

And of course if you like his story, I assume you listen to all of it. For example this:
https://www.dn.se/arkiv/inrikes/slu...na-carl-i-hytt-1-049-besattningen-var-nervos/
Efter knappt en timme vaknade han av ett mystiskt buller från fören och satte sig upp. Han hörde först hydraulljud och sedan kraftiga metalljud. Det lät som slag med en slägga.
my translation said:
After barely an hour he was awakened by a mysterious noise from the bow and sat up. He first heard hydraulic noises and then heavy metal noises. It sounded like a blow with a sledgehammer.
 
Garbage. You have combined a series of unrelated problems into an inference of a concerted, deliberate effort to hamper communication which does not withstand scrutiny. Stitching together a string of cockups and inviting us to call it a conspiracy does not impress.

A Russian station was apparently left transmitting on VHF emergency channel 16. Finnish coast guards complain they had done this before. This caused interference over a small area of the eastern Baltic, due to the short range of VHF. Probably completely irrelevant here.

The Estonia got into trouble so fast that they did not attempt to send a distress call until the ship was listing heavily which would have swung its radio antennae far from the vertical, shortening their effective range. Their call may eventually even have gone out from a handheld radio.
Nearby ships which did receive the call then had to relay that message to the Finnish coast guard and they in turn took some time to relay that message to their Swedish counterparts.

Nothing about this suggests some criminal mastermind stroking his white cat and muttering "excellent" in his stylish lair beneath a volcano.

Acknowledge the elephant in the room, don't ignore it.

The Mayday is the responsibility of the Captain or the second mate. Likewise this Mayday should have been sent from the bridge, where the VHF or FM installation is a lot more powerful than a walkie-talkie.

Why:

  • on the stroke of Swedish midnight did the catastrophe begin to commence?
  • Why didn't Capt. Arvo Andresson not make the Mayday at that point from the bridge?
  • Why was fourth mate Ainsalu using a walkie talkie trying to get through?
  • Why did the Captain of Mariella have the impression this was not his first attenpt to make contact?
  • Why did Mariella have to turn their frequency reception up to maximum to even hear Ainsalu?
  • Why could Ainsalu not give Silja Europa (who took over) his location, which should have shown up clearly on the bridge digitals?
  • Ainsalu, said, 'blackout' but why didn't the battery-operated backup kick in?
  • The next contact was made by third mate, Tammes, who had now got the coordinates (except it was 8" out. Why were they not immediately available?
  • Why did Silja Europe get the impression MV Estonia could not hear him or only marginally?
  • Why did Capt Thoresson of Mariella have to keep calling and calling to try to get through to Turku MRCC?
  • Why did he have to look up the MRCC landline number to eventually get through?
  • Why did the accident happen so fast in the first place that caused it to sink in record time?

Stop trying to make out that 'everything was fine'.
 
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Even if the MV Estonia was pierced on its side by a rocky outcrop - despite landing face down - why didn't the JAIC mention it?

Because they were interested in the CAUSE of the accident, not what happened when it hit the sea bed...

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited for breach of rule 0, rule 12
 
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I'm pretty sure most people understood that I was referring to material that can be scanned and published, not physical evidence.

EPIRB and VHF communications information is of course in the JAIC material.

Well, here I can only speculate. But based on my own personal experience from travelling with a car on a ferry, I can say that after the last car has been driven on, they close the ramp. When you are last you will be there when this happens, you will not have had the time to exit the car deck. Although I have never been the last car to drive onboard, I have been in the last group a couple of times, and seen the ramp close behind me.

That is not my experience. My experience is that you are given a window of time to arrive at the port for loading. This is a window of about half an hour and often about an hour before scheduled departure. This also applies to long-distance trains in Finland, where you can load your car but have to do so within a set time frame. The carriage then has to be coupled with the train. Likewise, you are told to arrive with your car, say, 'between 7:00 - 7:30' for a '9:00' departure.

So, the ramp is not slammed shut 'when the last car has boarded', it is shut at the scheduled time. Whilst most people conform and line up accordingly to be ready by 7:00, there will always be the car that turns up at the last minute because they are first time travellers and couldn't find the boarding point or - most likely - they are frequent travellers and thus, turn up 'Just In Time', because they know the ramp won't actually shut until circa 7:45.
 
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We've been around this before, yet here you are again desperatly trying to cast doubt on a survivor who contradicts your favourite conspiracy theory.

You and your passengers are required to leave your car after driving it onto the ship, and if you're among the last to board you have an excellent view of the ramp closing and whoever else got on last.
My experience is that trucks tend to be loaded into lanes one behind another but those lanes are spread across the deck, which makes sense so as to distribute the weight. They're not isolated or hidden from the passenger cars.

He didn't say he saw the ramp closing. What he said was he didn't see any military vehicle come in after him.
 
I'm sorry, but the Ovberg chap says he was the last to board. As a frequent traveller on that route, as a businessman, he says he was running a bit late and when he arrived at the port the road had been sealed off by military...


Whose military?
 
Vixen's sole source for many of these EPIRB claims is a single article written for a Swedish publication 25 years after the fact. The author in turn gives no specific authority for most of the claims he makes, most notably the claim that Koivisto presented to the JAIC on the subject of the EPIRBs (and the whole basis for the claim of a missing report). The only allegedly documentary evidence is the frame-grab from Helsinki television, which simply shows Koivisto in the same room as an EPRIB—not the same model as used on MS Estonia, and not the ones recovered. The author names a few sources, but attributes to them only ephemeral tidbits. The principal source for his article is Margus Kurm: you know, the guy who thinks submarines can fly. Kurm is cited over and over in the article, which goes on to make quite a lot of the same insinuations as we've heard from the other Estonia conspiracy theorists.

Here's the thing :—

I know why Koivisto was in Helsinki and I know what subject he really presented on to JAIC. It's actually in one of Vixen's sources (no, not that guy). And no, it wasn't on the EPIRBs. No, Koivisto wasn't the only person presenting that day, and no he wasn't the only presenter in the room alongside the EPIRB.

This whole story is most likely dreamed up by Kurm from a single photograph that can be interpreted so many ways. And all he needed was a writer looking for some bombshell article.

Now let's see if Vixen is smart enough to go through all her sources (instead of repeatedly making false claims here) and prove she can actually absorb what they say. Let's give her, oh say, six months.


You are quite wrong in your assumptions.

YLE svenska is a reputable broadcasting company not dissimilar in values and quality to the BBC. It is the state broadcaster. Its articles are all thoroughly fact-checked, run past lawyers, and are written by highly respected and qualified journalists. It is in no way sensationalist. It is a news channel. No adverts, no advertisers or sponsorships. No politically angled multi-millionaire non-domiciled owners purveying their own financial and political agenda. It is state-sponsored. So you are wrong again in your assumptions. Instead making assumptions perhaps look in to the facts.

You also made a previous assumption that Koivisto was just a businessman who had never actually served as a seaman. But in Finland it is that law that every man has to undertake military service (except for conscientious objectors, who can do a few months in jail instead). He supplies the military, specifically the navy. Of course he doesn't do interviews.

As for submarines: they are not always submerged. They can surface, you know. It is not just Kurm, it was that Norwegian professor as well and also Carl Rentheim a survivor who witnessed something moving away in the water. He is a diplomat. I suppose you are going to claim, that state prosecutors, academic professors and diplomats are all given to lying.

Kurm, so strongly does he believe facts were being withheld, that he, too, like reputable journalists, Jutta Rabe and Henrik Evertsson (quite independently of each other) actually got on a boat and sent down an ROV to collect information himself.

Kurm carried out an expedition around about the same time as the official (current) Arikas one. I don't know if his equipment was inadequate or he ran out of money, but his plan was to have the images analysed by some expert in Singapore. or thereabouts. Maybe he aborted the project or maybe he is waiting for Arikas to bring out his report first.

This is factual. Nothing to do with conspiracy.
 
Italicized are my replies.



Is that why you are doing it?

ETA: goddamn and this is all so ******* ridiculously pointlessly dumb. Like all the idiotic minutia of CT's. WHAT DIFFERENCE WHAT IT HAVE MADE IF THE EPIRB's HAD BEEN SWITCHED ON EXACTLY?! They did not receive GPS back then (to transmit the exact location). Rescuers would've gotten to the Estonia in precisely the same amount of time.

It was not GPS.

She-eesh.

The point is, someone tampered with them to ensure the ship would sink before rescue arrived. And it did.
 
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