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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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Here_to_learn said:
Instead of relying on your guesses, we can check what was actually reported.

The analysis group looked into this, and reports about it already in chapter 2.





TT is a press agency.
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1:30 would be about half an hour after Stockholm got the Mayday.

Thanks for the biggest laugh of the day: Carl Bildt was...wait for it...informed by a press agency pager at 1:31, the same time as everybody else at the party! TT News knew about the accident before the Prime Minister. That would be like saying the US President was informed of the 9/11 attack by Reuters.


As a true Skeptic, I call BS on that one.

"First TT telegram that Estonia is feared to have sunk."
 
It's a simple question, Vixen:

junkshop said:
Vixen said:
[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53172928635_4dc8d83e17_z.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53172694184_96194853b5_z.jpg[/qimg]
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Where did you get these images from?

What measures did you take to verify their authenticity?
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ETA: Two simple questions, to be precise, but you get my point, I'm sure.
 
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Mojo said:
Sources and direct quotations, with context, please.
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This is a Finnish paper that normally has a print run before the early hours so 29.8.1994 was the first day it reported on the disaster:

Against the gate theory of Sillaste, water could have come out of the ramps," Lehtola points out. Henrik Sillaste, the ship's Estonian engineer, said on Wednesday that the bow gate of the ferry was not completely closed and before the accident water flowed from the bow gate onto the car deck. Sillaste said he saw this on a surveillance camera monitor in engineering.
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HS
 
Vixen said:
1:30 would be about half an hour after Stockholm got the Mayday.

Thanks for the biggest laugh of the day: Carl Bildt was...wait for it...informed by a press agency pager at 1:31, the same time as everybody else at the party! TT News knew about the accident before the Prime Minister. That would be like saying the US President was informed of the 9/11 attack by Reuters.
As a true Skeptic, I call BS on that one.

"First TT telegram that Estonia is feared to have sunk."
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More likely by an aide watching one of the morning news programs.
 
zooterkin said:
Well, what technology do you believe was used to notify Bildt and Svensson, and when?
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According to Here_to_Learn they were paged by a pager from TT News Agency.

Now why couldn't TT News page Stockholm Coastguard as soon as the the Mayday was heard at 1:21 EET.

Surely someone must have used the modern invention the telephone to let TT News know.
 
Vixen said:
According to Here_to_Learn they were paged by a pager from TT News Agency.

Now why couldn't TT News page Stockholm Coastguard as soon as the the Mayday was heard at 1:21 EET.

Surely someone must have used the modern invention the telephone to let TT News know.
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Why would a news agency page a coastguard station?
 
Vixen said:
This is a Finnish paper that normally has a print run before the early hours so 29.8.1994 was the first day it reported on the disaster:

HS
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Oh, hi Vixen!

While you're here, and crediting your sources, would you care to respond to my query?

BTW, it's two posts above yours, in case you missed it.

ETA: The most recent iteration is, at least.
 
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Vixen said:
1:30 would be about half an hour after Stockholm got the Mayday.

Thanks for the biggest laugh of the day: Carl Bildt was...wait for it...informed by a press agency pager at 1:31, the same time as everybody else at the party! TT News knew about the accident before the Prime Minister. That would be like saying the US President was informed of the 9/11 attack by Reuters.


As a true Skeptic, I call BS on that one.

"First TT telegram that Estonia is feared to have sunk."
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Let me see if I understand.

If Bildt knew about the disaster early, then there's something suspicious going on. And if he learned about the disaster at the same time as everyone else, well, that's just ridiculous.

Is this about right?
 
Vixen said:
I can guarantee it will have been one of his intelligence (defence forces) guys.

Are you seriously suggesting the US President was watching it unfold on tv like the rest of us..?
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Potentially so. There were news programs turning their camera's unto the buildings within seconds of the first crash it being NYC... the news capital of the frickin planet. The first reports would've been from... TV. Its very common for government to find out about breaking news from.. get this... the news. The POTUS directly, probably no, an aide, probably yes.

The prez sitting around wondering wtf is going on while watching the news in the oval office, is likely the most realistic scene in the film Independence Day.
 
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Vixen said:
I can guarantee it will have been one of his intelligence (defence forces) guys.

Are you seriously suggesting the US President was watching it unfold on tv like the rest of us..?
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No, he was reading a children's book in a classroom.

Seriously. That's how it happened.
 
JayUtah said:
Sounds like someone's a bit miffed that the follow-on investigation hasn't found any more evidence of explosives than the previous one did. Maybe the one witness who claimed to have heard something that "sounded like an explosion" (you know, while the ship was falling apart) isn't slam-dunk evidence that there were explosives.
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You can't tell there was an explosion just by looking at an underwater image. The guy did actually say there was blackening at the hull but said it was 'probably bacteria'.

You do know these guys are discreet in how they impart information. They know not to say anything controversial. It's called 'managing expectations'.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Why would a news agency page a coastguard station?
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Turku Coastguard* and Helsinki via Finland Radio were unable to get through to Stockholm until 1:54. Stockholm put rescue into action at 02:02 EET as per their logs.

*It couldn't even get through to Aland until the ship had completely vanished beneath the waves.

Location coordinates not known until 01:44.

So Here_to_learn is saying Carl Bildt was paged by a news agency. Question: who informed the news agency?
 
CNN's live feed of the Twin Towers started at 8:49 am, approximately three minutes after the first impact. Pres. Bush was notified at 9:05 am by an aide.
 
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Vixen said:
You can't tell there was an explosion just by looking at an underwater image.
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You say this from your vast experience in forensic engineering?

The guy did actually say there was blackening at the hull but said it was 'probably bacteria'.
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From your vast experience in forensic engineering you think "blackening at the hull" is a telltale?

You do know these guys are discreet in how they impart information. They know not to say anything controversial. It's called 'managing expectations'.
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So, a conspiracy theory.
 
phiwum said:
No, he was reading a children's book in a classroom.

Seriously. That's how it happened.
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Yep, and iirc an aide came along and whispered in his ear "Mr President, America is under attack" or very similar.
 
phiwum said:
Let me see if I understand.

If Bildt knew about the disaster early, then there's something suspicious going on. And if he learned about the disaster at the same time as everyone else, well, that's just ridiculous.

Is this about right?
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If it was a Swedish submarine that collided with the ship, as former State Prosecutor for Estonia, Margus Kurm, believes, then that tells you (a) the escort would have been arranged and known pf in advance and (b) the collision would be relayed to the defence forces pronto, and (c) the first to know would not be the coastguard, or the TT News Agency but... Commander Svensson who would surely have imparted the news pronto to who he reports to.
 
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