Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Jack by the hedge]

Do you really not know what happens when there is an election and the previous government/ senate is dissolved? It is not like industry where you get three months notice.

I don't know what happens in Sweden. Not in any useful detail. I'm not persuaded that you do either, other than that you reckon an office party marks the transition of power.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Fair point. However, don't forget the salient point of Bildt and Svensson knowing of the accident so soon, they must have been monitoring the Estonia's journey. The need to swiftly explain it away by 'design fault in the bow visor' says it all.

Why do you keep pretending to know when Bildt learned about it?

 

[zooterkin]

Fair point. However, don't forget the salient point of Bildt and Svensson knowing of the accident so soon, they must have been monitoring the Estonia's journey.

Have you heard of a modern invention, called the 'telephone'?

 

[Darat]

Thread needs a serious clean out, being closed until that is completed. As ever you will have to wait until it is reopened to continue the discussion of the topic of the thread, which by the way is not each other.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Agatha]

Thread reopened. Please remember to follow your Membership Agreement when composing and submitting your posts.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Fair point. However, don't forget the salient point of Bildt and Svensson knowing of the accident so soon, they must have been monitoring the Estonia's journey. The need to swiftly explain it away by 'design fault in the bow visor' says it all.

How soon, exactly, and how do you know? What exactly would they have been monitoring and how?

 

[Axxman300]

Meanwhile, they've been inside the Estonia a couple of times. And thanks to the hull's roll they can survey/inspect the full hull below the water line.

Tauri Roosipuu of the Estonian Safety Investigation Bureau (OJK) told ERR that: "We have been continuing with the video survey of the vehicle deck."

Water entering the vehicle deck after the ship's bow visor sheared off in heavy seas is the primary official cause of the sinking.

"At the furthest extent, we reached the center of the ship, while we were also able to reach damaged areas on the starboard side, via the car deck. Later on, we re-entered the vehicle deck from the outside, accessing through the ship's damaged areas," he went on, adding that "nothing extraordinary has been observable from the inside of those damaged areas up to now."

It was a large, 40-meter gash in the starboard hull first spotted in footage obtained in 2020 which sparked renewed interest in the causes of the September 1994 disaster, which claimed the lives of 852 people, predominantly from Sweden and Estonia.

The current survey will attempt to collate the damage to the steel hull plating with the bedrock upon which the wreck lies, to ascertain if the hull damage was caused when the striking ship hit the seabed.

https://news.err.ee/1609041833/ms-e...ation-team-raise-more-never-before-seen-items

Hysterical fantasies aside, I find the current technologies involved in this expedition impressive.

And then there's this article detailing the survey of the vehicle deck:

https://news.err.ee/1609044017/esto...on-nothing-found-to-refute-official-narrative

Kuusk: The final report is still under preparation, but can something concrete be said even now - for example, in order to rule out the involvement of UFOs, or submarines?

Ots: Insofar as the current investigation goes, I can say that we have found no evidence that would falsify the official report. We found no traces of explosives at the site, for example. This is perhaps very clearly proven by the fact that when we were able to enter the car deck from the outside, to see through this hole, for example, where the hold is situated, how the vehicles are positioned, what the other circumstances are, we didn't observe any traces of explosives there, nor did we see that any other object had entered at that point. So in this regard, I think that with this new knowledge, I can't add anything further.

 

[JayUtah]

And then there's this article detailing the survey of the vehicle deck:

https://news.err.ee/1609044017/esto...on-nothing-found-to-refute-official-narrative

The article goes on to say the group will produce a digital model of the flooding progression, which to me would be highly instructive. Our methods for modeling the flooding of structures have improved many-fold since the 1990s.

 

[Vixen]

Have you heard of a modern invention, called the 'telephone'?

Did you already forget that communications were down? To the extent Sweden didn't get the Mayday until nearly 01:00 Swedish time/ 02:00 EET. And that the first Swedish helicopter didn't get there until circa 2:40?

The Captain of nearby Mariella taking the desperate May Day call of Ainsalu had to turn his radio instruments up to the maximum level to even hear the snatches of it. The Mariella captain had to ring Turku Coastguard on their landline.

'Why didn't they just ring up Stockholm using a modern invention, called the 'telephone'? asks zooterkin, in all seriousness.

 

[Vixen]

How soon, exactly, and how do you know? What exactly would they have been monitoring and how?

The leaving do was finishing up around midnight, key people were already going home at 23:30. I feel sure the party wasn't still in full swing come 01:00, it being an office party and it being Sweden, where people tend to get up early in the morning. The Defense chief Svensson monitoring whatever cargo was on board, if any, of course would have had to inform the PM who signed it off. Indeed, Bildt was pulled aside just as he was leaving, went back into his office and spent half the night there, with a cabinet meeting at 07:00-ish.

When asked by journalists when he found out about the Estonia disaster, he declines to say.

 

[Vixen]

Meanwhile, they've been inside the Estonia a couple of times. And thanks to the hull's roll they can survey/inspect the full hull below the water line.

https://news.err.ee/1609041833/ms-e...ation-team-raise-more-never-before-seen-items

Hysterical fantasies aside, I find the current technologies involved in this expedition impressive.

And then there's this article detailing the survey of the vehicle deck:

https://news.err.ee/1609044017/esto...on-nothing-found-to-refute-official-narrative

What an extraordinarily dumb question by the jorunalist, 'Did you find a UFO or a bomb..' Of course, a stupid question gets a stupid answer, 'Der, we didn't see any alien space ships, or bombs lying under the truck, nor any sign of a submarine...Der. We haven't actually investigated the results yet. Next!'

Quote:
Kuusk: The final report is still under preparation, but can something concrete be said even now - for example, in order to rule out the involvement of UFOs, or submarines?

Ots: Insofar as the current investigation goes, I can say that we have found no evidence that would falsify the official report. We found no traces of explosives at the site, for example. This is perhaps very clearly proven by the fact that when we were able to enter the car deck from the outside, to see through this hole, for example, where the hold is situated, how the vehicles are positioned, what the other circumstances are, we didn't observe any traces of explosives there, nor did we see that any other object had entered at that point. So in this regard, I think that with this new knowledge, I can't add anything further.

What were you expecting a professional technical person to say, 'Oh yeah, I'm going to reveal all to the SUN newspaper here and now.'

 

[Here_to_learn]

Did you already forget that communications were down? To the extent Sweden didn't get the Mayday until nearly 01:00 Swedish time/ 02:00 EET.

How would the Swedish Sea Rescue Central get it if not by phone? We already went through that in a previous iteration of the thread. The VHF signal does not propagate far enough to reach the Swedish stations.

You can see the regular coverage of the VHF base stations at https://stockholmradio.se/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/VHF-kartan_Norden_2023-09-02_Eng.jpg

To the distances above you add the height of the VHF antenna on the ship. A simple calculator can be found for example on https://www.qsl.net/w4sat/horizon.htm

And the Finnish rescue stations didn't call the Swedish ones until 01:52. The main reason being that there was only one person on duty in each of the Finnish rescue stations, and they were overloaded.

'Why didn't they just ring up Stockholm using a modern invention, called the 'telephone'? asks zooterkin, in all seriousness.

And that is exactly the question. And we know the reason - because the Finnish rescue centrals were busy and delayed the call to the Swedish ones, thereby delaying how quickly Sweden could send help.

It's all in the report.

 

[Here_to_learn]

The leaving do was finishing up around midnight, key people were already going home at 23:30. I feel sure the party wasn't still in full swing come 01:00, it being an office party and it being Sweden, where people tend to get up early in the morning.

Instead of relying on your guesses, we can check what was actually reported.

The analysis group looked into this, and reports about it already in chapter 2.

I Rosenbad i Stockholm pågår under natten en avtackningsfest för den avgående borgerliga regeringen. Runt midnatt tunnas gästantalet ut men tillställningen pågår fortfarande då klockan närmar sig halv två. Klockan 01.31 börjar personsökarna hos flera av festdeltagarna att ringa. Lars Christiansson och Per Zetterquist, presschefen respektive pressekreteraren i Statsrådsberedningen, nås bland andra på detta sätt av det första TTtelegrammet om att Estonia befaras ha sjunkit.

Statsminister Carl Bildt och statssekreterare Peter Egardt är på väg att lämna Rosenbad då de får beskedet om att en färja förlist.

In Rosenbad in Stockholm, a thank-you party for the outgoing moderate government is taking place during the night. Around midnight, the number of guests thins out, but the event is still going on as the clock approaches half past two. At 01.31 the pagers of several of the party participants start ringing. Lars Christiansson and Per Zetterquist, the press manager and press secretary of the Cabinet Committee, among others, are reached in this way by the first TT telegram that Estonia is feared to have sunk.

Prime Minister Carl Bildt and State Secretary Peter Egardt are about to leave Rosenbad when they receive the news that a ferry has sunk.

TT is a press agency.

 

[Axxman300]

What an extraordinarily dumb question by the jorunalist, 'Did you find a UFO or a bomb..' Of course, a stupid question gets a stupid answer, 'Der, we didn't see any alien space ships, or bombs lying under the truck, nor any sign of a submarine...Der. We haven't actually investigated the results yet. Next!'

First, you must understand that for the non-conspiracy theorist the Estonia conspiracies are on par par with UFO stories as they too are based on a few sightings, and then exaggerated by people with an agenda who believe they've found a shiny thing.

Second, they are obligated to report their finding to the public in a timely manner with preliminary updates on the survey, which they have done at least three times. Had they found evidence of an explosion it would have been reported with the available details.

Just because you don't like the results doesn't make them invalid.

What were you expecting a professional technical person to say, 'Oh yeah, I'm going to reveal all to the SUN newspaper here and now.'

Between the two articles I posted they have just revealed the important information from the new survey. I'm trying to keep this thread on topic, and the topic is the new survey of the Estonia. The accompanying photographs show the vehicle deck. No evidence of explosives or fire, something you'd find if you set off a charge in a confined space full of fuel tanks, especially if it was large enough to sink a vessel of that size.

I'm presenting the current information available. The report won't be published until late 2024, or early 2025 because they're assembling a massive multimedia report with 3D photo stitching, new computer animations of the sinking, and all the detailed metallurgy, and geophysics, and benthic marine hydrodynamics.

As of this moment the fact is there was no explosives and no collision. The bow visor was knocked off, ripping open the bow ramp. That's it, that's all she wrote.

 

[zooterkin]

Did you already forget that communications were down? To the extent Sweden didn't get the Mayday until nearly 01:00 Swedish time/ 02:00 EET. And that the first Swedish helicopter didn't get there until circa 2:40?

The Captain of nearby Mariella taking the desperate May Day call of Ainsalu had to turn his radio instruments up to the maximum level to even hear the snatches of it. The Mariella captain had to ring Turku Coastguard on their landline.

'Why didn't they just ring up Stockholm using a modern invention, called the 'telephone'? asks zooterkin, in all seriousness.

Well, what technology do you believe was used to notify Bildt and Svensson, and when?

 

[The Common Potato]

You don’t have caterpillar tracks as well? *My* escape sub is a half-track vehicle, based on the classic Hanomag. Nothing quite like stolen Nazi technology.

Red October had a caterpillar drive and that was Russian!

 

[JayUtah]

What an extraordinarily dumb question...
* * *
What were you expecting a professional technical person to say...

Sounds like someone's a bit miffed that the follow-on investigation hasn't found any more evidence of explosives than the previous one did. Maybe the one witness who claimed to have heard something that "sounded like an explosion" (you know, while the ship was falling apart) isn't slam-dunk evidence that there were explosives.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Almost like earwitness testimony is only the start of an investigation not the end, and is less important than physical evidence. Who would have thought it?

 

[lobosrul5]

Instead of relying on your guesses, we can check what was actually reported.

The analysis group looked into this, and reports about it already in chapter 2.





TT is a press agency.

Thanks for all that. Vixen, can we drop this goofy tangent line now? <-- I ask knowing the answer is no.

The party went late* the PM** was informed of a maritime disaster via these modern miracles called telephones and pages via his aides. Its not the result of the worlds worst conspiracy time coordination.

*by some peoples standards including mine, but I'm not Swedish
** yep still the PM til the next guy took over a week later as was always scheduled

 

[Vixen]

Okay, let's.

So he lost power on 18 Sept. And had an office party on 27 Sept. That's what you're claiming here, right?


We can infer they were not told of the accident before the accident. Whatever else you think you are inferring there about leaving is not clear.




What does that mean? All you've done so far is infer he was told the event was happening after the event was happening. When you discover anything even slightly suspicious do please let us know but so far this is useless crap.


Speculation built on speculation. You appreciate this is not evidence, right?





A report that someone else left the party at 11:30. So what? This isn't a kids party where everyone's mum picks them up at bedtime. Do you have anything else?




Ah. You have more speculation. And 'lackeys'. Why not go the whole hog and call them 'henchmen'? Insinuation is all you have so far. Might as well lean into it.




He didn't know, but he could speculate on the sort of vulnerability that type of ship is prone to. Not sinister.


Baloney. When and where do you claim Bildt first said this? Please remember we have 400 pages of beating the crap out of your non-evidence.

<snip part of the regurgitation as I got bored>




He didn't.

Bildt saying it was the bow visor was in all the papers the very same afternoon as the accident. The bow visor wasn't even located until some time later.