Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Mojo]

A theory which is distinctive in one regard: it is holed above the waterline and sinks anyway.

You remember this, right? The hole in Estonia's side is above the waterline. You do remember this, right? Or do you have a special ability to forget inconvenient facts?

Maybe the submarine hit it after it had turned turtle and floated on its superstructure.

 

[JesseCuster]

Vixen, your meandering explanations and excuses for what it meant for 28th September to be Carl Bildt's last day is frankly pathetic and everyone can see it what for it is. You made up a conspiracy factoid to fit into your puzzle and now it's been laid bare as a fantasy, you just invent a new excuse to explain it away.

 

[Mojo]

They stuck one of those through the side of poor old HMS Malaya in testing, I seem to remember. Missed the main armour belt.
Luckily it wasn't full of stolen and smuggled top secret soviet tech. That would have been annoying.

Malaya, eh? Perhaps the Estonia was struck by a jet-propelled guided NAAFI.

It would at least explain the hole being above the waterline.

 

[Vixen]

So you have documentary evidence but not of when Bildt was told, and nor of who told him. So can we have a bit less of you pretending to know that he was told suspiciously early and that he was told by the security services please?

I also note that your evidence does not say Bildt knew the cause of the sinking suspiciously early either. It rather looks like a whole lot of nothing.

How you get from their speculating about the alternatives to claiming they chose a conclusion they would order the investigation to agree with looks like completely unsupported madness to me.

Let's take it slowly and fine slice it.

During the evening of 27 to 28 September 1994 the Bildt Government was celebrating the farewell party in the Prime Minister’s office at Rosenbad** together with their political civil servants.

So far, so good? His leaving do started on Tues 27 Sept 2023 in the evening at Rosenbad government offices in Stockholm. He had just lost the elections which were on 18 Sept 1994. When a government loses an election, parliament / senate is dissolved. The winning party had not yet nominated the Prime Minister nor sworn him or her in. Things happen quickly after election results are all in, including proxy votes, postal votes and regional votes. So come after midnight (we know this because Bildt and his colleagues were about to leave when Bildt was called aside). This is because the accident began to happen at Swedish midnight.

Bildt and some others were just about to leave when Bildt got the message*** that a Finland ferry was in trouble. He does not remember from whom.

So it becomes apparent that Bildt knew of the disaster at a very early stage. How? Because he had the intelligence of the security services and the military. He probably knew before the Swedish Coastguards.

The Swedish Coastguard at Stockholm did not get the Mayday from Finland Radio until 01:54 (12:54 Swedish time).

But was Bildt really still there at midnight? We have the following report:

2) Jonas Hafström, Security Adviser to the Prime Minister up to 07.10.94 – Interview II/23. He left the farewell party at Rosenbad at about 23.30 hours and went home where he was phoned at 02.00/03.00 hours by his sister and informed of the catastrophe.

Jonas Hafstrom's sister was a high up Civil Servant who would have got the information from Bildt or his lackeys. The Prime Minister would definitely get the news before a jumped-up civil servant, certainly. The two times given are Swedish time and Finnish time. Around about the same time the first Swedish rescue flights set off.

At about 07:00 next mornign there was a cabinet meeting and it was arranged for Carl Bildt and the Estonian and Finnish PM's would meet up in Turku (where the survivors had been taken) to speak to some of them to get an understanding of what happened.

On the same flight to Turku, was Commander Emil Svensson Military adviser to Carl Bildt - the go between for the defence forces and the secret services - and he was asked many times by press reporters on the same flight:

He was on the flight to Turku (he says to Helsinki), asked many times “how and why could it happen?”

How did it happen? Before even interviewing a single survivor Svensson was already saying it was a matter of the car deck being swamped with water causing a capsize. 'Unless of course, there was a hole!' he quipped. Carl Bildt, too was already saying it was the bow visor falling off that was the cause of the accident. This would have been from reports by Sillaste, Treu and Linde, who were only lowly engineers and Linde later transpired to be a criminal drug smuggler, so why their word would be taken as the official version when nobody can have known the bigger picture, except those on the Bridge itself, and they were all dead.

[Svensson on the plane to Turku]did report about the danger of the “free surface effect”*. It was his assumption that by whatever means a lot of water must have penetrated on to the car deck and subsequently the free surface effect reduced the stability of the ferry to such an extent that she capsized. “And one hour on this side for this vessel increased the effect additionally.” A few decimetres only created an incredible effect on a large area (such as the car deck).

The interviewer: “How was it found out that the bow door (visor) had influenced or even had been the cause of the accident?”

Svensson: “As far as I remember, not at all, but it was simply an alternative, how so much water could have penetrated the car deck so quickly that free surfaces were created very rapidly. The other alternative was, of course, that there was a rather big hole.”

** It is unknown when Svensson was finally informed about the “huge hole” in the side caused by collision or something.

On meeting the other two prime ministers at Turku, Carl Bildt insisted on claiming it was a'design fault' and that the accident was caused by the bow visor letting in water.

The communications minister, Mats Odell – Communications Minister up to 09.10.94 and an-Olof Selén was a high ranking civil servant in the Communications Ministry responsible among other things for Sjöfartsverket and Statens Havarie Kommission – subsequently the Swedish JAIC.put out a press release statement to this effect.

Neither Odell nor Johansson nor Selén mention the open dispute between their Ministry and the Seasafety Director Bengt-Erik Stenmark concerning the question of the visor locking devices of the many car/passenger ferries in the Baltic which was triggered off by Bildt’s very determined intention to have obtain “evidence” that the ESTONIA sank due to faulty design of the locking devices of her bow visor.

This information comes from 'The German Group' acting for the shipbuilders Meyer-Werft. https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/chapter21/21-0.html

Conclusion: As it is technically impossible for Carl Bildt to conclude it was a design fault of the bow visor within six hours of the disaster, when survivors and the drowned were still being picked up and police were still taking statements, it becomes obvious that Bildt and Svensson were keen to convince the public of a mundane reason for the accident.

At the end of the day, Bildt and Svensson are just ordinary people. Like Boris Johnson refusing to release the Russia Report or the bullying report into then Home Secretary Priti Patel, one's position in government should not be used to cover up potentially embarrassing information. Calling something 'classified' just because it may be embarrassing to Sweden is not a good reason IMV. One hopes that the new investigators will be more transparent and forthcoming and not hide behind 'military operations classified secret', or fob off the victims' families with an anodyne tale of a strong wave knocking off the bow visor.

 

[Vixen]

Was there perhaps a special ceremony at the party to remove his powers? A cake with a letter of dismissal hidden in it? Or are you just blustering?

Do you really not know what happens when there is an election and the previous government/ senate is dissolved? It is not like industry where you get three months notice.

 

[Here_to_learn]

It was a simple statement of fact. Your leaving do is when you clear your desk.

It was his last day. He had no more powers to enact laws after that. He was just 'acting' PM until Carlsson was sworn in.

So, again.

Bildt resigned the day after the general election, in the morning of Monday September 19th. After that he was acting PM.

On October 6th the parliament (Riksdagen) voted to approve the new PM (Carlsson). At 11:30 Friday October 7th the actual transfer happened.

There was no change in the powers between Sept 19th and Oct 7th - Bildt had exactly the same powers all the way through.

Source for the above: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeringen_Carlsson_III#Bildande

The only argument against these facts that you have been able to come up with is that he had a party of the evening on the 27th, which is totally irrelevant. The outgoing PM can decide to have the party any time.



Now, onto some reasoning on the time for the party:

If you check the dates government s periods, and focus on the autumn ones after a general election, you can see that it usually takes until the first or second week of October to form a new government, after a mid-september election. But when the changeover happens is out of control for the outgoing PM. It all depends on how the negotiations are going between the parties in the Parliament. In 2021 it took until end of November to agree. The decision is the day before the handover.

So if you as outgoing PM are planning for a party, to run it at the end of September is a suitable time. It's most probably before the new PM will take over. But you don't wait until the actual final day, since that will only give you a couple of hours to plan and send out invitations.

 

[Andy_Ross]

But the outgoing PM is still PM until the new one take over
Or are you saying the country had no leader?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Rosenbad is the official Swedish government building = the White House or Westminster.

ETA:

Since you mentioned the White House. Barack Obama had his farewell party at the White House on Friday, January 6, 2017. https://time.com/4627311/obama-farewell-party-celebrities/

His last day in office wasn't until January 20.

It was where Bildt's office was, together with civil servants. This was the official leaving do.

So was Obama's, but it still didn't coincide with his last day in office. It was a party, nothing more, nothing less. Nothing else was significant about that date. No desks were cleared, no powers changed.

Also, are you suggesting that the conspirators knew when the *party* was going to be ahead of time, and planned everything to coincide with it? It sounds like you are simply latching on to a coincident fact and trying to make it mean more than it ever did.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

The White House and Westminster Palace (also known as the Houses of Parliament) are not even remotely the same thing. The actual American equivalent is the Capitol building. The White House would be roughly equivalent to 10 Downing Street.

How do you not know this Vixen?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

ETA:

Since you mentioned the White House. Barack Obama had his farewell party at the White House on Friday, January 6, 2017. https://time.com/4627311/obama-farewell-party-celebrities/

His last day in office wasn't until January 20.

Yes, but was he allowed to.sink civilian passenger ferries between midnight in the 6th & Jan 20th. I don't think so, QED!

 

[Steve]

Yes, but was he allowed to.sink civilian passenger ferries between midnight in the 6th & Jan 20th. I don't think so, QED!

The Obama ferry sinking was so well planned and so stealthy that no one ever heard about it. American ingenuity is king!

 

[P.J. Denyer]

The Obama ferry sinking was so well planned and so stealthy that no one ever heard about it. American ingenuity is king!

The secret is to sink it by holing it above the waterline, that way it keeps floating & no-one knows it's been sunk.

 

[Steve]

The secret is to sink it by holing it above the waterline, that way it keeps floating & no-one knows it's been sunk.

So you were in on it? You shouldn't be so free with government secrets.

 

[lobosrul5]

Do you really not know what happens when there is an election and the previous government/ senate is dissolved? It is not like industry where you get three months notice.

Who, cares! Why does this matter? But also show where Bildt was officially no longer the PM at midnight the night that there was no PM at all til the next guy. You can't. Your using a leaving party as your sole piece of evidence.

And really... he was informed too quickly, that's your CT evidence. Give it a rest.

 

[Vixen]

ETA:

Since you mentioned the White House. Barack Obama had his farewell party at the White House on Friday, January 6, 2017. https://time.com/4627311/obama-farewell-party-celebrities/

His last day in office wasn't until January 20.




So was Obama's, but it still didn't coincide with his last day in office. It was a party, nothing more, nothing less. Nothing else was significant about that date. No desks were cleared, no powers changed.

Also, are you suggesting that the conspirators knew when the *party* was going to be ahead of time, and planned everything to coincide with it? It sounds like you are simply latching on to a coincident fact and trying to make it mean more than it ever did.

Fair point. However, don't forget the salient point of Bildt and Svensson knowing of the accident so soon, they must have been monitoring the Estonia's journey. The need to swiftly explain it away by 'design fault in the bow visor' says it all.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

So you were in on it? You shouldn't be so free with government secrets.

I have an escape submarine ready for if they come for me, it's prepped & ready to go I checked the tyres just yesterday.

 

[junkshop]

Vixen, as you still have not credited your source, I ask yet again:

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53172928635_4dc8d83e17_z.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53172694184_96194853b5_z.jpg[/qimg]

Where did you get these images from?

What measures did you take to verify their authenticity?

 

[malbui]

I have an escape submarine ready for if they come for me, it's prepped & ready to go I checked the tyres just yesterday.

You don’t have caterpillar tracks as well? *My* escape sub is a half-track vehicle, based on the classic Hanomag. Nothing quite like stolen Nazi technology.

 

[JesseCuster]

Do you really not know what happens when there is an election and the previous government/ senate is dissolved? It is not like industry where you get three months notice.

September 28th was not Carl Bildt's last day in office in anyway you can reasonably claim with any evidence.

Even if it was, it'd be a caricature of conspiracy minded thinking to truly think that the date was baked into the operation by the sinister powers that be as part of a secret message that 'they' did it.

How can you believe that with a straight face and cry about being a conspiracy theorist?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Let's take it slowly and fine slice it.

Okay, let's.

So far, so good? His leaving do started on Tues 27 Sept 2023 in the evening at Rosenbad government offices in Stockholm. He had just lost the elections which were on 18 Sept 1994. When a government loses an election, parliament / senate is dissolved.

So he lost power on 18 Sept. And had an office party on 27 Sept. That's what you're claiming here, right?

So come after midnight (we know this because Bildt and his colleagues were about to leave when Bildt was called aside). This is because the accident began to happen at Swedish midnight.

We can infer they were not told of the accident before the accident. Whatever else you think you are inferring there about leaving is not clear.

So it becomes apparent that Bildt knew of the disaster at a very early stage.

What does that mean? All you've done so far is infer he was told the event was happening after the event was happening. When you discover anything even slightly suspicious do please let us know but so far this is useless crap.

How? Because he had the intelligence of the security services and the military. He probably knew before the Swedish Coastguards.

Speculation built on speculation. You appreciate this is not evidence, right?

The Swedish Coastguard at Stockholm did not get the Mayday from Finland Radio until 01:54 (12:54 Swedish time).



But was Bildt really still there at midnight? We have the following report:

A report that someone else left the party at 11:30. So what? This isn't a kids party where everyone's mum picks them up at bedtime. Do you have anything else?

Jonas Hafstrom's sister was a high up Civil Servant who would have got the information from Bildt or his lackeys. The Prime Minister would definitely get the news before a jumped-up civil servant, certainly. The two times given are Swedish time and Finnish time. Around about the same time the first Swedish rescue flights set off.

Ah. You have more speculation. And 'lackeys'. Why not go the whole hog and call them 'henchmen'? Insinuation is all you have so far. Might as well lean into it.

At about 07:00 next mornign there was a cabinet meeting and it was arranged for Carl Bildt and the Estonian and Finnish PM's would meet up in Turku (where the survivors had been taken) to speak to some of them to get an understanding of what happened.



On the same flight to Turku, was Commander Emil Svensson Military adviser to Carl Bildt - the go between for the defence forces and the secret services - and he was asked many times by press reporters on the same flight:







How did it happen? Before even interviewing a single survivor Svensson was already saying it was a matter of the car deck being swamped with water causing a capsize. 'Unless of course, there was a hole!' he quipped.

He didn't know, but he could speculate on the sort of vulnerability that type of ship is prone to. Not sinister.

Carl Bildt, too was already saying it was the bow visor falling off that was the cause of the accident.

Baloney. When and where do you claim Bildt first said this? Please remember we have 400 pages of beating the crap out of your non-evidence.

<snip part of the regurgitation as I got bored>

Conclusion: As it is technically impossible for Carl Bildt to conclude it was a design fault of the bow visor within six hours of the disaster...

He didn't.